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PSYART  March 2000, Week 1

PSYART March 2000, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Whorf's idea

From:

Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Institute for Psychological Study of the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:23:12 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

From:
        Dan Moonhawk Alford <[log in to unmask]>

Mon 6:55 PM

How can I not intervene, with such an opening?

On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Norman Holland wrote:

> Signifiers "belong to a symbolic structure that shapes us daily."
> Now, this is what is known in linguistic circles as the Whorf-Sapir
> hypothesis.

Although this simplistic monocausal deterministic argument is known in
linguistic (psychological, sociological, anthropological, etc.) circles as
the Sapir-Whorf or simply Whorf Hypothesis, it has absolutely nothing to
do with anyhing that either Whorf or Sapir actually wrote. It's a strawman
argument devised by small minds that can't grasp the full complexity of a
complementary argument: the way people think has something important to do
with the way they speak -- AND VICE VERSA -- would be closer to the ways
in which Sapir and Whorf approached this issue. The additional phrase
above is critically important and overlooked by most critics/commentators.

> Whorf argued that Amerindian languages, very differently structured
> from Indo-European, changed their speakers' way of seeing the world.

More carefully, since their view is not actually CHANGED from some
universalized underlying Indo-European worldview to something else, we
might say that the language/culture (mainly post-1957 Chomskyian linguists
are so foolish as to arbitrarily make language autonomous from culture) of
a people shapes their worldview as well as reflects it. If, as I have
learned from Native America, you can in many of these languages talk all
day long without ever uttering a single noun, focusing on verbs of
processes and relationships instead of "things," with no obligatory split
between subject and predicate, can anyone here claim that is not a
different way of seeing and being in the world?

> On our list, Dan Alford Moonhawk defends this view vigorously (and may
> intervene in our discussion),

Moonhawk is my given Cheyenne name (Aenohe-eshe?e) rather than family
name. ;-) And, as you can see, it's not the simplistic strawman view, but
what Sapir and Whorf actually wrote, which I defend vigorously.

> but most linguists do not accept it or accept it in a very limited
> form.

Okay. Try this as an alternative: I haven't searched all of Sapir, but I
can safely say, and stake whatever reputation I have on saying it, that in
all of Whorf's writings, there is not a single Hypothesis that he
wrote. He called it "the PRINCIPLE of linguistic relativity." All
hypotheses (and there are literally hundreds!) have been written by other
people who failed to put their own names to them, blaming Whorf for their
failures.

Further, Whorf's has everything to do with Einstein's principle of
relativity, since both Sapir and Whorf got the idea from the founder of
linguistics, Wilhelm von Humboldt -- and so did Einstein, through his
mentor and rooming house owner Jost Winteler, a Humboldtian trained
relativity linguist, when he was a grad student in Zurich. (See my
"Stealing the Fire" and other Whorf articles on my webpage noted below.)
So anyone taking on Whorf must take on Einstein as well. At bottom of
Einstein's principle: you can't use a 3D language (Euclidean geometry) to
describe a 4D universe; for that you need a non-euclidean language. As
Whorf said, a change in language can change your view of the cosmos.

20th-C social science, however, deals with testable hypotheses built on
monocausal determinism, which Whorf rejected in favor of the more subtle
logic of complementarity. Thus, the linguists et. al. who accept
monocausal deterministic interpretations "in a more limited view" are
still deterministic -- while Whorf, whom they accuse of it, is not. Does
the term "projection" mean anything to you?

> Their argument is that all languages have to conform to the ecology we
> face--something like Freud's reality principle--so they can't change
> our perceptions of things very much or at all.

I guess that would be true if reality consisted entirely of "things," but
invisible processes and relationships are up for grabs, IMO. Well,
actually, even "things" are up for grabs: "duck" and "rattlesnake" have
little in common in English, but SO much in common in Cheyenne that both
words begin with the same morpheme, "she?she," and then rattlesnake has an
extra morpheme meaning "goes down in a hole." So a rattlesnake is a duck
that goes down in a hole? Patently absurd for any human being. Except that
"she?she' really refers to the combined sound/motion as either one is
going away from you. The morphemes don't refer to "things" at all, but
physical primes of animate movement from which "things" may be inferred.

And if that isn't a fundamentally different way of seeing the world than
we do, I have no idea what would qualify!

Finally, I tell my grad students that if they really want to know the
deepest and most important issues of their discipline, whatever that may
be, then see who the discipline is beating up on! And if they are ever so
lucky as me to find someone that four or five disciplines are ganging up
to beat up on, they'll know they've struck gold!

Again, if anyone is interested in what Whorf REALLY said, check out my
webpage. You'll be amazed.

warm regards, moonhawk

[log in to unmask]
http://www.sunflower.com/~dewatson/alford.htm

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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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October 2003, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 4
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June 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 1
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 3
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May 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
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January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
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December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
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November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
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September 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 1
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June 1997, Week 4

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