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PSYART  September 2001, Week 4

PSYART September 2001, Week 4

Subject:

Re: military action?

From:

Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Institute for Psychological Study of the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:12:56 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (156 lines)

From:
        "Mary Ellen Elkins" <[log in to unmask]>

11:36 AM


I 'm not sure which particular posts Johnathan  Schiff refers to in his, but
I would to respond.

There are those who have stated that we should treat Bin Laden as a
criminal: find him, arrest him and try him. If the Taliban is hiding Bin
Laden, as the news reports would have us believe, then they are complicit in
his crime and should be treated in the same way. However, since they are
rulers of a sovereign state, that involves diplomacy with others, to win
them to our side and isolate and weaken the Taliban, weaken its political
and war-making effectiveness. As we learned in Kuwait, we cannot bomb them
without bombing the innocent victims of their criminal state, many of whom
are, as you mentioned, defenseless women and children. I strongly disagree
that this is a pacifist point of view. Nevertheless, it is far different
from the "bomb them back to the middle ages" and "The New War" sentiments
that would appear, also by news accounts, to be held by the majority of
Americans. Perhaps I missed something, but it appears to me that we are
launching ships full of young men with no where to go.

Too many of our population seem to equate brute, heavy-handed force with
strength; this is the same mistaken belief, historically held and acted upon
by the US in its conflicts with other nations that has lead us to violate
over and over the sovereignty of other nations, for which others despise us.

I applaud the effort of some here to apply psychoanalytic understanding to
the motives and psychological state of terrorists, for if we recognize
others as human, like ourselves, then perhaps we can, in finding the
solution to our conflicts with others, rise above the futile and aimless
bombing of innocent human beings  and interfering with the government of
sovereign states as routine policy, to the point of eviscerating them,
leaving them vulnerable to criminals like Bin Laden.

In aswer to the question, what are the psychological elements operating in
terrorist actions, let me suggest:
1) the population that supports terrorism is isolated from the rest of
nations.
2) they are suffering --from poverty and from restricted freedoms; this and
a
deep conviction of helplessness -- of powerlessness.
3) the combination of the above two, in extreme, results in a conviction of
separateness from others, a cessation of identification with others as human
beings, and a deeply held belief in the dehumanization of those that are
perceived to be the oppressors. In other words, if you believe in your own
powerlessness, you become convinced of the overwhelming and merciless power
held by those with whom you are in conflict; you do not see their humanity,
nor can you identify with it, thus you cannot empathize. In my view, when
the US solves its problems by violating, by means of force, the sovereignty
of other nations, it lays the groundwork for alienation, suffering,
isolation, deidentification and the failure of empathy --which we have
engendered.

I agree with a little girl recently quoted on the news: I think we should
tell them our names and airlift food, etc, to the population of Afghanistan.

Mary Ellen Elkins

From: "Norman Holland" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 4:57 PM
Subject: military action?


> From:
>         j schiff <[log in to unmask]>
>
> 12:27 PM
>
>
> Dear Listmembers:
>
> It's good that those harboring pacifistic sentiments feel
> free to provide their views, but I wish they would at
> least show evidence that they've truly reflected on the
> views expressed by the other side.
>
> Members of this list, as well as those on others, continually
> characterize those supporting military action as bloodthirsty.
> Certainly there is some bloodthirstiness out there, but
> there are plenty of people who support military action out of
> a desire for self-defence.  The more time Bin Laden has to wipe
> out an entire city, the more likely he is to do so.  Negotiating
> with the Taliban and engaging in other actions recommended by
> pacifists will merely allow Bin Laden more time to engage in
> more terrorism.  The U.S. tried for years to negotiate.  And lest
> anyone doubted that Bin Laden would like to decimate an entire
> city, such as New York, Washington, Tel Aviv, or Paris, everyone
> now knows that one of the Trade Center terrorists sought to find
> out how much chemical material could be carried on a cropduster.
>
> Sure, there will be other terrorists out there after Bin Laden is
> stopped, but Bin Laden has shown a capability of carrying out
> an amount of violence beyond what the other terrorists can do.
> Bin Laden is rich, brilliant, persistent, and has had lots of time to
> prepare
> his network.  Thus, while those opposing military action are fond
> of using the slogan "violence begets violence," let me add another
> slogan:  the lack of violence will beget even more violence.
> Pacifism, in this case, represents a lower rather than higher
> moral ground.  I wouldn't want to live in a country that would
> be willing to give a terrorist time to wipe out an entire city
> with anthrax in the water/air.
>
> I'm less solidly in support of military action against the Taliban,
> but I do agree with the argument--neglected by contributors to this
> list--that terrorists need state support in order to thrive.  I
> disagree with right wingers in the U.S. who support going after
> every nation supporting terrorism, but I do feel that
> by going after the Taliban, we will scare some foreign leaders
> into ceasing their charity toward terrorists.
>
> Some contributors to this list do raise a good question when they
> wonder if the U.S. can take _effective_ action against the Taliban,
> but they need to consider that the U.S. isn't planning to occupy
> Afghanistan.  The goal is to topple a woman-hating, pro-terrorist
> regime and then to work with Afghanis and the U.N. to support a
> less horrible regime--which would be just about any regime.  It
> should be noted that no amount of foreign aid will ever have an
> effect as long as the Taliban are in power, since their staunch
> refusal to let women work ensures that their gross national product
> will always be roughly half of what it should be.  I'm assuming
> that women half of the population, but with all the warfare they've
> had, they may be more than half.
>
> I realize that many of you have previously encountered some of the
> arguments I list above, and I realize that many of you
> will continue to disagree, but I wish people would at least
> respond directly to these arguments instead of simply viewing
> people like me as bloodthirsty jingoists.  I also wish those
> criticizing flagwaving would acknowledge that there's nothing
> wrong with celebrating the good things about a country while
> remaining critical of the bad things, such as Reagan's support
> of the Taliban back in the eighties.
>
> By the way, though officials in the N.Y.C. area don't want people
> to visit downtown to view the rubble from a few blocks away, I'm
> glad I did so.  Since what the t.v. images are so surreal, I had to
> see the rubble and the missing posters with my own eyes, and smell the
> ashes.  Though it was of course extremely sad to go there, it ended the
> horrible sense of unreality I was experiencing.  I could barely see the
> rubbble from the distance, but it felt much more real than what I'd seen
> on t.v.  So I
> recommend a visit for anyone who lives within walking/driving
> distance who hasn't visited but shares the sense of unreality.  You
> will shed more tears but be less in shock, which I think is
> ultimately worse.  (I should note that I'm not a health care
> professional).  It would probably be best to go early on a weekend
> morning when there isn't too much traffic.
>
> Best,
>
> Jonathan Schiff

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November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 4
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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 3
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 3
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May 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 1
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August 1998, Week 1
July 1998, Week 4
July 1998, Week 3
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
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April 1998, Week 1
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December 1997, Week 5
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October 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 1
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