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PSYART  September 2001, Week 4

PSYART September 2001, Week 4

Subject:

LA Times: Soviet Vets Warn US of Perils in Afghanistan

From:

Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Institute for Psychological Study of the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 22 Sep 2001 16:46:37 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (206 lines)

From:
        "Heather AT" <[log in to unmask]>

Thu 12:49 PM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-091901sovvets.story

Soviet Vets Warn U.S. of Perils in Afghanistan

Strategy: Soldiers who fought there warn the U.S. to expect daily
deliveries of coffins and few targets other than villages.
By MAURA REYNOLDS
Times Staff Writer

September 19 2001

MOSCOW -- When Igor Lisinenko entered what he was told was an Afghan
rebel base in 1982, he wasn't sure what to expect. It was, after all, his
first assignment as a member of a Soviet army reconnaissance team sent to
confirm that airstrikes a few hours before had destroyed the base.

But the young lieutenant saw no ruined fortifications in the village near
the Afghan city of Kandahar. No rebel corpses. All he saw was a handful
of crumbly clay huts. And two old men carrying a little girl, no more
than 3 years old.

Her foot had been blown off. She was white from the loss of blood.

The patrol loaded her into a helicopter to take her to a hospital. In
those few minutes, Lisinenko said Tuesday, he understood two things: The
girl was doomed to die and the Soviet military campaign was doomed to
fail.

"I didn't doubt for a second that her father would take a gun and come
after me or any other Russian soldier he could find," Lisinenko recalled.
"And he or some other father or brother or son 'found' many of my friends
before it was over."

As the United States prepares for possible military action in
Afghanistan, Lisinenko and other Soviet veterans watch with trepidation.
They know better than anyone what U.S. troops might be getting into.

"Can it be that America is nostalgic for the times it was getting daily
deliveries of zinc coffins from Vietnam?" asked Andrei Logunov, chairman
of Moscow Afghan Veterans Assn. "This time it will be even worse."

Soviet forces occupied Afghanistan in 1979 to prop up a shaky Communist
regime. They spent 10 years trying to wipe out U.S.-financed moujahedeen,
or holy warriors, one of whom was a young Saudi named Osama bin Laden.
The Soviet Union lost 15,000 soldiers in the process and withdrew in
disgrace.

The Soviets weren't the first defeated by Afghanistan's determined
fighters and mountainous terrain. In the 19th and 20th centuries, the
British fought three wars and suffered heavy casualties trying to control
the land and its people. In 1842, about 4,500 British and Indian troops
and thousands of their dependents were killed during a retreat from
Kabul. Only one survivor reached India.

Veterans from the former Soviet Union say that what would await U.S.
troops sent into Afghanistan's mountains would be unlike anything
American forces have encountered, whether in the fields of Europe in
World War II, in the jungles of Southeast Asia or the deserts of the
Persian Gulf region.

First, there are no real "bases" for terrorists, they say. Fighters live
in ordinary villages. Air or artillery strikes against them will
invariably kill civilians.

"When I hear people talk about terrorist 'bases' I have to laugh," said
Vyacheslav Izmailov, who commanded a battalion in Afghanistan.
"Terrorists don't sit in bases waiting for bombs to drop. They live in
houses. They live with families. . . . If America begins to drop bombs,
all they will do is convince the anti-Taliban population that the United
States is their enemy."

Moreover, there are few targets other than villages, the veterans warn.
There are few bridges, no factories. Most of the country's infrastructure
has been destroyed in decades of civil war.

"Even in Iraq you had something to bomb," Lisinenko said. "But there are
no targets in Afghanistan. There's nothing there to bomb."

Bin Laden may be holed up in Afghanistan's formidable mountains, which
are riddled with caves whose entrances are small, hidden and remote.
Soviet veterans say they are impervious to bombing.

"The Soviet air force tried hard to smoke fighters out of their hide-outs
using various methods and weapons," said Col. Alexander Akimenkov, who
piloted bombers and helicopters during the Afghan conflict and is
Russia's top civilian test pilot. "The Soviet military dropped vacuum
bombs [that pull oxygen from underground sites]. They even dropped 3-ton
bombs designed to cause local earthquakes that would bury moujahedeen in
their caves. But we still were unable to wipe out the rebels."

The reason, Akimenkov said, is that the caves in the Kandahar gorge are
actually deep tunnels.

"In Soviet times, these caves could accommodate thousands of people,
which rendered most of air raids meaningless," Akimenkov said. "The
people sitting at the far end of such a cave would not even notice that
you dropped a bomb that exploded at the entrance."

Only Special Forces teams could rout Bin Laden from such lairs, the
veterans said. But that requires good local intelligence, including
reliable informants.

Lisinenko worked firsthand with such intelligence--he has a degree in
Persian languages and he was the reconnaissance unit's translator. Some
informants were paid, others were not, he recalled. Either way, the
information was mostly inaccurate.

"They would take our money and then lie," Lisinenko recalled.

Lisinenko said that to understand the Afghan mind-set, you have to
set aside Western values.

He learned this his first day in Afghanistan when he entered a family's
hut. The poverty was more than he could fathom. There was no furniture.
No light. The only object inside was a copy of the Koran, tucked into an
alcove.

"I asked an old man, 'Why do you live in such conditions? Don't you want
to do something to improve your lot?' " Lisinenko said. "But the man
replied, 'Don't you understand that the worse we live in this world, the
better our lives will be in paradise? We don't want the same things in
life that you want.' "

That's when Lisinenko said he began to understand that Western ideas of
warfare might not succeed in Afghanistan. How do you battle a foe who has
so little to protect in this world? A person who may believe a greater
good will come from sacrificing himself, his home, his family? How do you
vanquish an enemy for whom categories of defeat and victory, life and
death do not match yours?

"Nothing we know works in their world," he said.

Lisinenko left Afghanistan two years later with a wounded leg and a
shattered spirit. These days, the 39-year-old runs a tea bag company and
represents a district of Moscow in Russia's lower house of parliament.

The lesson they learned in Afghanistan, the veterans said, is that
actions to stop terrorism more often have the opposite effect.

They urged the United States to accompany military action with economic
aid and forswear a bombing campaign.

"The Afghans will stop fighting each other and join together to fight
you," said Izmailov, former battalion commander. "You need courage, but
not to drop bombs. What you need courage for is to not drop bombs.
Otherwise, your war will be endless."

And though veterans of the Afghan conflict point out that the U.S. bought
the bullets for the moujahedeen who killed their comrades, Lisinenko said
most wouldn't wish an Afghan war on their worst enemy.

"Don't do it like we did. Don't do it like you did in Vietnam," he said.
"Don't listen to me if you don't want. Listen to your own people, those
who fought in Vietnam. . . . They'll tell you the same things."
_ _ _
Sergei Loiko and Alexei Kuznetsov of The Times' Moscow bureau contributed
to this story.

For information about reprinting this article, go to
http://www.lats.com/rights/register.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================
"You need courage, but not to drop bombs.  What you need courage for
is to not drop bombs.  Otherwise, your war will be endless."
Vyacheslav Izmailov, former Soviet commander stationed in Afghanistan.

"Those who are willing to forfeit liberty for security will have neither."
--
Benjamin Franklin


Antonia Juhasz
Project Director
International Forum on Globalization
1009 General Kennedy Avenue #2
San Francisco, CA 94129
phone: 415-561-3490
fax: 415-561-7651
http://www.ifg.org



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March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 1
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 4
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
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August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 4
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June 2003, Week 1
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 3
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
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August 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3
September 1998, Week 2
September 1998, Week 1
August 1998, Week 4
August 1998, Week 3
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August 1998, Week 1
July 1998, Week 4
July 1998, Week 3
July 1998, Week 2
July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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October 1997, Week 5
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August 1997, Week 3
August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 4

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