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PSYART  March 2002, Week 5

PSYART March 2002, Week 5

Subject:

symbol in dreams

From:

Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Institute for Psychological Study of the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:47:52 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (163 lines)

From:
       "Mary Ellen Elkins" <[log in to unmask]>

Wed 6:22 PM


Dear David,

Your recent posts on this topic are a great deal more than merely helpful --
I subscribed to PSYART  to read such posts.

Nevertheless, I don't follow how being religious affects the distinction
your making -- can you elaborate a bit on the following:

But what about when someone, say in Alcoholics
> Anonymous, says, "that's my higher power telling me to do that."   They
are
> making a distinction between "I" and something they experience as "not-I"
> and as "higher" than themselves. So it is a differentiation between the
> personal and the non-personal.  But is it really that?  Or is it just a
> semantic trick to avoid taking personal responsibility for what they want
> to do?  You can't say for sure, when it is someone else's experience.  But
> if you are a religious person, you will agree that it is a legitimate and
> important distinction to try to make.

Also, I would add that your analysis of the part played by symbol within
dreams -- that its role is RELATIVE to other, past and current events -- is
remarkably similar to the way I would describe the way symbol works with
visual language in painting.   I understand you to be saying that there is a
SET of relationships that are made up of symbol (personal and non personal)
unconscious associations, conscious content, emphasis, subjective
interpretation, analytic goals (subject?) etc, -- that when taken together,
determine dream interpretation; the interpretation, thus spawns new or
revised, symbolism, language and content or new emphasis.  That is, the
whole process of dream interpretation is organic and very much an art?
(Given, however, that the art is based upon a some basic facts, or
hypotheses, about human consciousness.)

Mary Ellen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman Holland" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Dream interpretation and symbolism


> From:
>        David Oswald <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Sun 3:47 PM
>
>
>  >>This seems tricky to me because where a "person," begins and ends is
> flexible, with a continuous flow of information in and out. Also, if the
> interpretation of a dream effects the dreamer, then that interpretation,
> even the interpreter, will effect the next dream?<<
>
> Joel, I think you are right on both counts (if I understand you
correctly!)
>
> In my parlance, the boundary where a person "begins" and "ends" is the
> ego-boundary, the limits of the "I."  The flow into and out of the ego is
a
> flow between the ego and the unconscious. We speak of these two as if they
> were clearly defined separate objects, but in fact the boundary between
> them can be enormously porous.
>
> There are great individual differences in how permeable this boundary is;
> with some people it is like an iron wall with a gate that is more or less
> under conscious control, in that the ego decides what contents it wants to
> let in and when it wants to.  Sometimes the gate is not under conscious
> control and either nothing gets in (Jung called this a sclerotic
> consciousness) or the gate flies open at its own discretion. With other
> people, the boundary is more like a picket fence, or sometimes it hardly
> seems to exist at all;  a person then lives in a more or less continuous
> state of unconscious identity with their environment and with what ever
> contents are currently in their field of consciousness.
>
> It is the job of the ego, of the "I," to set its own boundaries.  This is
> an astonishing fact -- and it is both an enormous freedom and a
frightening
> responsibility.  As part of this, it is also the "I" that determines where
> in the inner world the personal ends and the non-personal begins.  This is
> not an a priori distinction or definition, but an ongoing process of
> conscious differentiation. In other words, the "I" is continually defining
> the "not-I,"  it is continually deciding "This is 'Me', that is 'Not-me.'"
>
> Most people have had the experience of differentiating their "I" from,
say,
> their parental voices inside them: "Oh, when I said that, that was my
> mother speaking in me.  She always used to say that, but when I now stop
> and reflect, that is not really me, I have a different opinion or a
> different feeling."  But what about when someone, say in Alcoholics
> Anonymous, says, "that's my higher power telling me to do that."   They
are
> making a distinction between "I" and something they experience as "not-I"
> and as "higher" than themselves. So it is a differentiation between the
> personal and the non-personal.  But is it really that?  Or is it just a
> semantic trick to avoid taking personal responsibility for what they want
> to do?  You can't say for sure, when it is someone else's experience.  But
> if you are a religious person, you will agree that it is a legitimate and
> important distinction to try to make.
>
> So to bring this back to dreams:  it is difficult to make a blanket
> statement that a given symbol is always from the impersonal layers of the
> psyche.  Yet these layers exist and it is possible to become aware of
> them.  If a woman dreams, "My mother comes to me dressed as the Virgin
> Mary,"  should one think, "Aha, see, this shows that in this person's
> unconscious, the Virgin Mary is nothing more than a positive idealization
> of her personal mother (perhaps to disguise a really bad relationship with
> her mother?)"  Or should one think, "Aha, see, the unconscious is trying
to
> make this woman aware of the fact that through her personal mother, she
can
> experience something of the impersonal, sacred reality that the Virgin
Mary
> represents."   There is no a priori answer about which is the correct
> interpretation.  It will depend on the dreamer's conscious relationship to
> her mother, and to the Virgin Mary, and on the analyst's understanding of
> the religious significance of the Virgin Mary and of the purpose of the
> analysis.
>
> On your second point, about whether interpretations and interpreters
affect
> subsequent dreams, I believe most Jungians would say yes.  We tend to view
> the unconscious as an unfolding process throughout life, and understand
> that the unconscious and a person's conscious attitudes mutually affect
and
> condition each other.  If one consciously initiates a dialogue with the
> unconscious,  one can discover that the unconscious is active of its own
> accord and responds differently according to the conscious attitude that
is
> turned toward it.  So while you can't prove that an interpretation
directly
> affects a subsequent dream, it happens frequently in analysis that when an
> interpretation hits the mark, subsequent dreams may take on a different
> quality.  Depending on what's going on, this could be further elaboration
> of existing themes, or a gush of new motifs, or greater (or lesser)
> intensity, etc.
>
> Concerning the interpreter, Jungians have always held that it is
impossible
> for an analyst to be neutral. One's subjectivity is always part of the
> equation of what is going on, and can be a powerful part of the analytical
> work.  The important thing is that it be used responsibly.  This is true
in
> dream work too.  The mere fact that the analyst is confronting the
> analysand with unconscious material that he or she may not want to see,
can
> lead to transference dreams in which the analyst directly appears in the
> analysand's dream.  Also, it is often impossible to give equal attention
to
> all parts of a dream in an analytic hour.  Somehow, between analyst and
> analysand, a decision has to be made about what to focus on.  This
> selectivity in turn may result in one complex being activated and not
> another, which in turn constellates different unconscious contents which
> may (or may not!) express themselves in subsequent dreams.
>
> Sorry if I went on too long about this... I hope it is helpful.
>
> with best reagrds,
> David Oswald

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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 4
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April 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
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October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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