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RECMGMT-L  September 2004

RECMGMT-L September 2004

Subject:

Re: RAINdrip: 30 year old documents and records still tell a tale

From:

"Tyler, Judy K Ms DACH-Ft Hood" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Records Management Program <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:21:31 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (183 lines)

I mentioned in an earlier posting that I have done several MFRs.  Mine
are done according to Army correspondence guidelines (since I used to
teach Army correspondence, it's pretty ingrained in how I do business).
My MFRs were only kept to cover myself over about an incident, or to
document an incident until the appropriate time had pass that the memo
was not needed, then I discarded it.  Although proportional typewriters
were available back then, they were not the norm.  The Air Force and
Army's correspondence styles were different, and that MFR just didn't
look like the formatting that I remember coming from Air Force documents
we would receive.  Maybe someone from the Air Force could address the
formatting.  I have seen enough to convince me that these documents are
forged.

Judy K. Tyler, CRM
Records Management Officer
Information Management Division
USA MEDDAC
Fort Hood, TX  76544-4752
(254) 288-8009
(DSN) 738-8009


-----Original Message-----
From: Records Management Program [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Gary Vocks
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RAINdrip: 30 year old documents and records still tell a
tale

This does bring up the one issue that I've wondered about from the
beginning.  When I would write a "cya" memo as I've been describing it
was usually handwritten.  The few that I did type were no where near as
formal as the Killian memo that I've seen.  (Of course, I was never
anywhere near the rank of light Colonel and never had anyone to do my
typing for me!) B-(

Anyhow, to answer the question, I personally would question the
authenticity of the memos from what I've seen so far.

Gary Vocks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen, Doug" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: RAINdrip: 30 year old documents and records still tell a
tale


> It sounds like the key questions surround whether Lt. Col. Killian
> ever wrote the memos in question..... It appears unlikely that this
> branch of
the
> service had the tools necessary to produce the document and that those

> closest to the Lt. Colonel (his family) indicate that he never used
> typewriters or computers and that they believe that any notes that he
might
> have written would have been in paper form.
>
> Were "we" serving on a jury, judging the "authenticity" of the
> doucments, could any of us honestly accept what we have seen so far as

> something we would deem to be authentic?  Perhaps some might, but from

> all that I have seen and heard, I couldn't accept them as authentic at
all.....
>
> Doug Allen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Vocks [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: RAINdrip: 30 year old documents and records still tell a
> tale
>
> I can only speak to my own experience and my own motives. Of course
> I'd write a memo like this to reflect my side of the issue.  That was
> the
whole
> idea behind writing it.  As I said, as a young supply officer there
> were times that I was told to do things by my superiors that I
> believed weren't right.  If I couldn't convince the person that what
> they wanted was either against regulations or at the very least was
> not a proper action, I'd
write
> one of these memos.  Did I really expect them to be a legal record?
No?
> Did I expect that they might  help explain why I did something and
> maybe keep me out of the brig when an auditor questioned me a couple
> of years
down
> the road if one of these transactions was looked at?  Maybe.
>
> I have no idea why (or even if) Lt. Col. Killian wrote the memos in
> question.  But, if he did write them, it could very well be that they
might
> simply be to explain why he wrote a glowing fitness report for an
> officer
he
> really didn't believe deserved one.  One thing that many of you may be

> forgetting is that, in most military situations, the people who are
> your superiors now will probably be transferred to other duties/places

> before
you
> are.  When their replacements look over what has been going on in the
> command they may look at something you did and question why you did
it.
It
> might just help to have a piece of paper that you wrote at the time of

> the incident to help explain your actions.
>
> In my case, I never expected that I'd keep this type of document for
> 30+ years or that it'd be something that would cause the commotion
> that these memos are stirring up.  I suspect that if Lt. Col. Killian
> would have thought his would he'd have dumped them years ago.
>
> Gary Vocks
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael, Lee" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:49 PM
> Subject: Re: RAINdrip: 30 year old documents and records still tell a
> tale
>
>
> > So how could the content of this type of information be
> > authenticated after 30+ years without additional "real records"?  If

> > this is basically a "CMA" memo as you stated earlier, it could be
> > written in a way that reflected the situation in the most positive
> > way for the person writing the memo, and not necessarily to
> > accurately reflect the
> situation.
> >
> > I've seen many "memo to file" type documents, but they are always
> > found in the case file related to the activity or action not in
> > someone's "personal collection"...
> >
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Records Management Program [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On

> > Behalf Of Gary Vocks
> > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 3:31 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: RAINdrip: 30 year old documents and records still tell
> > a tale
> >
> > As I said in my earlier note on this subject a "mfr" of this type
> > may never have been written to be a part of a federal record series.
Lt.
> > Col. Killian may have written it (or at least kept this copy as a
> > "memo for his personal record."  As I also said, it was a way for a
> > subordinate to "cover his six"
> > when he was forced to do something he didn't agree with!
> >
> > Gary Vocks
> >
> > List archives at http://lists.ufl.edu/archives/recmgmt-l.html
> > Contact [log in to unmask] for assistance
> >
>
> List archives at http://lists.ufl.edu/archives/recmgmt-l.html
> Contact [log in to unmask] for assistance
>
> List archives at http://lists.ufl.edu/archives/recmgmt-l.html
> Contact [log in to unmask] for assistance
>

List archives at http://lists.ufl.edu/archives/recmgmt-l.html
Contact [log in to unmask] for assistance

List archives at http://lists.ufl.edu/archives/recmgmt-l.html
Contact [log in to unmask] for assistance

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