> From:         J. R. Raper
> Subject:      Re:      Oops!
>
>
> Anne and Mary,
> I addressed a message to Anne that should have gone to Mary.
> My bad.  Please pardon.
> Jack
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Murray Schwartz" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:03 PM
> Subject: FW: FW: FW: Fw: Between Pennebaker and Kaufman
>
>
> > > From:         J. R. Raper
> > > Subject:      Re:      FW: FW: Fw: Between Pennebaker and Kaufman
> > >
> > > Anne,
> > > I agree with much of what you are saying about creativity, including
> > > Berman's view that creativity prolonged Plath's life.
> > >
> > > I hope nothing I wrote led to the view that writing poetry had a causal
> > > effect on her suicide.  What I meant to say was that her creativity was
> not
> > > enough, finally.  Nor was there any avatar of prozac around to dull her
> pain
> > > of depression.  In addition, the analysis of narcissistic disorders had
> not
> > > yet developed well enough to help her.
> > >
> > > I would add, however, that the poems as an end cannot, no matter how
> > > brilliant, justify the suicide as a means to underscore their
> importance.
> > > Sometimes I wonder whether,  for poets of her generation coming after
> the
> > > Beats, suicide did not sometimes appear the only act dramatic enough to
> > > follow the acts that had come before.  And Plath knew suicide was a
> dramatic
> > > act, no matter how heartfelt.  I used to make a list of poets of that
> > > generation from Berryman on, but I have forgotten many of the names on
> the
> > > list--those of poets I still admire for their poems and not for their
> > > dramatic deaths.  After all, the romantic period should have ended by
> 1850,
> > > Hemingway not withstanding.
> > >
> > > Depression and suicide do seem to run in families, but not everyone who
> > > inherits depression commits suicide, even without prozac and suitable
> > > therapies (traditional psychoanalysis might have imploded the defenses
> Plath
> > > possessed).
> > >
> > >  This topic is so important to a list on psychology and the arts that it
> > > bears examining at least once a year, imho.
> > >
> > > Will we see you in Chapel Hill again any time soon?
> > >
> > > Jack
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Murray Schwartz" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 11:25 AM
> > > Subject: FW: FW: Fw: Between Pennebaker and Kaufman
> > >
> > >
> > > > > From:         Mary Elkins
> > > > > Subject:      Re: FW: Fw: Between Pennebaker and Kaufman
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, Jack,
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems too much to conclude that writing poetry has a causal
> effect on
> > > Sylvia Plath's suicide, particularly in view of the facts about her
> life,
> > > which you put forth.  Depression is an illness, with it's unique causes
> and
> > > effects, and I think we should not minimize those when viewing them next
> to
> > > those of creativity.  Jeffrey Berman made an excellent argument in his
> book,
> > > _Surviving Literary Suicide_, for the theraputic effects of personal
> > > writing.  He asserted that creativity could have very well prolonged
> Plath's
> > > life, rather than hastened its end.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a young person, I too was deeply affected by Plath's poetry.
> Also, I
> > > had what seems to me now to have been rather superstitious and scary
> notions
> > > about the relationship between creative expression of negative
> experience
> > > and self-detruction.  Now, I view those notions as an internalization of
> the
> > > mystique surrounding the artist, one that is fed by cultural attitudes,
> > > including those in the academy.  For instance, when has there been a
> > > scholarly, psychoanalytic conference on mental illness in plumbers?
> > > > >
> > > > > Everyone of us employs creative thought and action in our everyday>
> > > lives; we begin that way, and end that way.  There are many more
> possibities
> > > to explain why some of us make things -- paintings, literature, music --
> > > that we call art.  And why shouldn't our experience of life -- of both
> the
> > > comedic and the tragic -- be expressed in that art, just as others' who
> > > don't make 'things' express themselves through their work, thier lives,
> > > their relationships?  Didn't Joyce find that consciousness was itself a
> > > creative act?
> > > > >
> > > > > I truly believe that if those interested studied more on the nature
> of
> > > creativity, than on a few selected artists, they would find creative
> thought
> > > and action in themselves.   Perhaps those artists who become famous do
> so,>
> > > due to the fact that they speak to a broad audience, and to its time --
> in
> > > addition to the aesthetic values of their art.  Or, perhaps content and
> form
> > > cannot be separated.  That would suggest that we all are affected by and
> > > identify with the pathological, to a degree.
> > > > >
> > > > > Haven't we seen this discussion on this list before?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mary Ellen Elkins
> > > > >
> > > > > Murray Schwartz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: J. R. Raper [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > Subject: Re: Fw: Between Pennebaker and Kaufman
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Haifa,
> > > > >
> > > > > If you read the (published) letters from her mother, you find out
> that
> > > Plath had an intrusive show-biz type mother who tended to micro-manage
> the
> > > girl's life, which may have robbed her of the ability to develop
> internal
> > > resources including initiative and agency. From her most powerful poems
> we
> > > also know how she viewed her father, who, in fact, was chiefly a missing
> > > part of her life. Without his real presence, she felt she had to fill
> the
> > > blanks with boundless projections.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given these two parental objects, she must have suffered from severe
> > > core deficits that made it difficult to neutralize the larger emotions
> that
> > > flooded her, including her successes and her depressions. Ted Hughes was
> > > asked to fill a vacuum in her life he could hardly know what ! to do
> with.
> > > Surely he was not the perfect husband for her, but who could have undone
> the
> > > damage of the two parents, one dead, the other too much alive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nor did releasing the emotions in the poems fill the deficits.
> > > > >
> > > > > Her overwhelming passions gave us her poems, but they also took her
> > > finally from her admiring readers.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a professor in the seventies and eighties, I found it painful to
> > > watch young women read The Bell Jar and identify. Plath likely became
> the
> > > Young Werther of that generation, leaving a string of attempted suicides
> in
> > > her wake.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tell me I am wrong because I still love many of the poems.
> > > > >
> > > > > The film does not, as I recall, deal adequately with any of these
> core
> > > issues.>
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Jack Raper
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Murray M.Schwartz
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 7:31 AM
> > > > > Subject: Fw: Between Pennebaker and Kaufman
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Dr. Haifa A! l-Sanousi
> > > > > Subject: Between Pennebaker and Kaufman
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello everyone
> > > > >
> > > > > From my reading and my research I reached the point that says
> > > (Expressive Writing is a therapeutic tool). We can get this from the
> great
> > > researcher James Pennebaker. And when we read Kaufman's research we
> reached
> > > the point which says poetry might cause an early death..!
> > > > >
> > > > > I do believe that expressive writing including creative writing lead
> to
> > > well- being, self- exploring and improving, especially when you write>
> from
> > > the heart.
> > > > >
> > > > > I - myself - have a great positive result from expressive writing
> > > through my life. I started writing when I was 10 years old.
> > > > >
> > > > > When we look at Sylvia's poetry we can see that she was focusing on
> the
> > > sad events and feelings in her life, she was looking at the dark side of
> her
> > > life. I don't think that she expressed in her poetry the good things in
> her
> > > life, such as being a wife of a great British poet, having two beautiful
> > > kids, ! being a poet herself, etc.
> > > > > I think she killed herself because she was depressed and she was
> getting
> > > in touch with her dark thoughts and sad feelings when she write or read
> her
> > > poetry.Am I right ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Haifa
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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