Marcelo-
My name is Heather and I'm in grad school in the Environmental
engineering department.  I took industrial ecology this summer
with Dr. Delfino and we discussed a lot about the ethanol issues.
Could I read your dissertation?
I am also going to Brazil next week, were ethanol production and
use is soaring, so I am very interested to learn more.
Thanks,
Heather



On Thu Sep 22 11:05:42 EDT 2005, Marcelo Dias de Oliveira
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Allow me to participate of this discussion. I don't have the same
> authority
> and/or  knowledge of you guys, but I want to participate anyway.
>
>
> Most of you don't know me. My master's dissertation was on
> ethanol fuel
> production and environmental impacts.
>
>
> For what I will write I don't have data at the top of my mind.
> But I don't
> think
> numbers are the big issue here.
>
>
>
> I do realize that there are some serious problems when
> considering the use
> of
> renewable sources to substitute fossil fuels in large scale
> considering
> current
> scenarios. Actually during our work (also Dr. Burton Vaughan and
> Dr. Edward
> Rykiel Jr. from WSU), we came to a conclusion that would be
> unfeasible in
> terms
> of cropland requirements, for the whole US passengers cars fleet
> to use
> ethanol.
>
> However in our conclusions we did not totally disregard the use
> of ethanol
> fuel,
> basically because Increasing research might improve efficiency of
> fuel
> ethanol
> production, reducing its energy costs and environmental impacts
> to a point
> that
> ethanol could have fractional participation  along with other
> sources on the
> role of substituting fossil fuels.
>
>
> I have the sense (and lack of data), that the amount of solar
> energy that
> reaches the earth in a daily basis should be a factor encouraging
> the
> pursuit of
> the efficient utilization of this energy source. Here again,
> research might
> play
> a big role, bigger than in ethanol, in my opinion.
>
>
> We would not be using cell phones today if we decided back on the
> 80's,
> considering costs and other technical aspects, that it was
> worthless to
> invest
> in such technology.
>
>
> Also the potential for Hydrogen production need to be better
> assessed, not
> only
> considering current scenarios.
>
>
> Again, I acknowledge that current scenarios are not very
> favorable for
> renewable
> sources at large scales, however, just disregarding those options
> doesn't
> seem
> wise to me.
>
> I agree with Dr. Humphrey that we should have a more optimistic
> view in this
> issue and I wanted to thank him for sharing information about
> solar energy
> ongoing projects and perspectives.
>
> I also agree with Dr. Hurford about nuclear energy potential, and
> also want
> thank him for sharing all those information.  As an immediate
> alternative
> source
> for fossil fuels, nuclear energy is readily available, and could
> have a
> great
> contribution.
>
> Nuclear generating does not generate CO2, and it has
> inconsequential other
> pollution features.
>
> The main objections to nuclear power have been a) radiation
> health
> hazard, b) potential for diversion of nuclear fuel to warfare
> purposes,
> and c) uneconomical without massive subsidy. The first two
> considerations are potential problems, only; the last
> consideration was
> true in the past, but can no longer be claimed.
>
>
> I am not advocating adoption of one or another option for the
> future, at
> least
> not right now. Although I confess I already had better
> expectation about
> renewable sources. My biggest hope still relies on the sun
> energy.
>
> I think the energy issues should be carefully and unbiased
> analyzed.  And
> these
> kind of discussions are very important. Current scenarios are not
> favorable
> to
> renewable energy in large scale; nuclear power might be an
> immediate option.
> But we should not rely just on current scenarios.
>
> Again, as an environmentalist and ecologist, my hopes rely on the
> sun.
>
>
>
> Thank you all for the attention,
>
> Marcelo.
>
>
>> From: Steve Humphrey <[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To: Bioenergy and Sustainable Technology Society
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy"
>> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:51:07 -0400
>>
>> Two aphorisms come to mind:
>> "Optimists and pessimists both get what they expect."
>> "If you drive a car only looking in the rear-view mirror,
>> eventually you
>> will run off the road."
>>
>> To learn more about what is happening and what may be possible,
>> it is a
>> challenge to keep our minds open to new possibilities.  The news
>> is
>> helpful.
>> For example see the following from Forbes.com:
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> BP Solar to start building world's largest solar power plant in
>> Portugal
>> next yr
>> 09.13.2005, 03:59 PM
>> LISBON (AFX) - BP PLC unit BP Solar will begin building the
>> world's biggest
>> solar energy power station in Portugal next year, Portuguese
>> officials
>> said.
>> 'The construction of the station will begin in 2006, it is
>> irreversible,'
>> Moura mayor Jose Maria Pos-de-Mina was quoted as saying by Lusa
>> news
>> agency.
>> The plant is expected to be completed in 2009 and will have a
>> total cost of
>> 250 mln eur. The town of Moura owns the majority of the firm
>> which will
>> oversee the solar power station project, Amper Central Solar.
>> The plant
>> will
>> have 350,000 solar panels spread over 114 hectares near the
>> southern town
>> of
>> Moura and will be able to produce 62 megawatts, more than six
>> times the
>> largest existing solar power station in Germany. 'This is a
>> unique project
>> and the world's most ambitious in terms of final capacity,' said
>> BP Solar
>> commercial director for southern Europe, Francisco Conesa,
>> according to
>> Lusa.
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> For another example, see the appended news story from
>> BusinessWeek.
>>
>> It is helpful for example to read the current trade
>> publications, such as
>> Environmental Science & Technology Magazine.  Perhaps others on
>> this list
>> could recommend publications worth being on our personal reading
>> lists.
>>
>> It is also useful to examine what companies are doing to
>> commercialize
>> proven concepts.  For example, the WilderHill Clean Energy Index
>> (ECO)
>> provides a list of "pure" alternative energy companies at
>> http://www.wilderhill.com/about.html (scroll down to the list at
>> the
>> bottom).  There is an exchange-traded fund of stocks (PBW) that
>> tracks this
>> index http://www.powershares.com/pbwfund.asp.  You can research
>> what these
>> companies are doing to transform the energy system.  Beyond this
>> list are
>> "greening companies" that are not pure "clean energy" companies,
>> like GE
>> and
>> Toyota, which are nonetheless making major moves to transition
>> toward
>> cleaner energy.  Both green and greening initiatives are quite
>> interesting.
>>
>> Dr. Stephen R. Humphrey, Director of Academic Programs,
>> School of Natural Resources and Environment,
>> Box 116455, 103 Black Hall, University of Florida,
>> Gainesville, FL  32611-6455  USA
>> Tel. 352-392-9230, Fax 352-392-9748
>> http://snre.ufl.edu
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>> SEPTEMBER 12, 2005   ?  Editions: N. America | Europe | Asia |
>> Edition
>> Preference
>>
>> SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY
>>
>> Power From The Sunbaked Desert
>> Solar generators may be a hot source of plentiful electricity
>>
>> Before President George W. Bush signed the federal energy bill
>> into law on
>> Aug. 8, he got a firsthand glimpse of a technology that could
>> transform the
>> deserts of the Southwest. Instead of a sandy wasteland, there
>> would be
>> gleaming farms with thousands of giant dish-shaped mirrors
>> measuring 37
>> feet
>> in diameter. Each dish would track the sun and focus its heat
>> rays on an
>> oil-barrel-size contraption suspended out in front, harnessing
>> the heat to
>> drive a 25-kilowatt generator. Advertisement
>>
>> Plant enough of these solar-dish farms, Bush learned on his tour
>> of Sandia
>> National Laboratories' National Solar Thermal Test Facility near
>> Albuquerque, and they could mightily reduce the need for
>> electric power
>> plants that burn fossil fuels and emit carbon dioxide.
>>
>> MOJAVE MEGAWATTS
>> The day after the Presidential tour, Sandia's vision began to
>> look a lot
>> more real. The supplier of the solar-thermal dish generators,
>> Stirling
>> Energy Systems Inc. in Phoenix, won a major commitment from
>> Southern
>> California Edison Inc. (EIX ) (SCE): For 20 years the utility
>> will buy all
>> the electricity that Stirling Energy can generate at a
>> 500-megawatt solar
>> energy farm that Stirling will build in the Mojave Desert near
>> Victorville,
>> Calif. This could be the biggest solar installation in the world
>> -- equal
>> to
>> a typical coal-fired plant. And if local power lines can be
>> upgraded to
>> handle more juice, Stirling could enlarge the facility to 850 MW
>> -- and SCE
>> would take all of that, too.
>>
>> Stirling's deal was made possible by several trends that are
>> pushing
>> alternative energy into the mainstream. As oil has become more
>> expensive,
>> so
>> have natural gas and coal, the primary fuels for power plants.
>> At the same
>> time, concerns about global warming have prompted lawmakers --
>> local,
>> state,
>> and now the feds -- to unleash incentives for renewable energy.
>> Wind power,
>> solar energy, geothermal, and biomass fuels are all benefiting.
>>
>> If the dishes do well, Stirling Energy's 4,500-acre desert farm
>> will usher
>> in new potential for Stirling engines, invented in 1816 by
>> Church of
>> Scotland minister Robert Stirling. His engine is ideal for green
>> energy
>> because it doesn't burn fuel internally. Instead, its pistons
>> are driven by
>> heating and expanding a reservoir of gas, which then cools for
>> the next
>> cycle. Using the sun's energy to heat the gas means zero fuel is
>> burned.
>>
>> Stirling Energy stands to rake in upwards of $90 million a year
>> once the
>> solar dishes are generating 500 MW in 2011. For SCE, already the
>> largest
>> purchaser of renewable energy in the U.S., the extra 500 MW will
>> more than
>> double the 354 MW of solar power it tapped in 2004 from nine
>> other
>> solar-thermal operations in the Mojave. It will also add almost
>> 20% to
>> SCE's
>> 2,588 MW of renewable energy sources, including 1,021 MW of wind
>> power.
>> Last
>> year more than 18% of the electricity that the utility delivered
>> to its
>> customers came from renewables.
>>
>> Monster dish-shaped "heat antennas" are hardly familiar icons of
>> green
>> power. People tend to associate solar energy with flat, glassy
>> panels that
>> convert photons from sunlight into electric current. But such
>> photovoltaic
>> cells don't produce power as efficiently as Stirling dish
>> generators. Cells
>> typically convert just 10% to 15% of the sun's light -- and many
>> cells
>> perform at just half that level. In contrast, Stirling dishes
>> achieve
>> almost
>> 30% in Sandia's six-dish system. "Later this year we'll do even
>> better,"
>> declares D. Bruce Osborn, Stirling Energy's new CEO and a
>> longtime solar
>> proponent.
>>
>> DAYTIME ONLY
>> Why hasn't Stirling Energy's technology made more of a splash in
>> the power
>> business? "Our dilemma has always been how to get costs down,"
>> explains
>> Osborn. The dish assemblies now run $250,000 each. But that's
>> because most
>> have been handcrafted in sporadic lots of one or two units.
>> Building a
>> group
>> of 40 or so would trim the cost to $150,000 each, Osborn
>> estimates. With
>> real mass production, that could drop by 50%.
>>
>> So when SCE said it wanted to buy more renewable energy,
>> Osborn's outfit
>> proposed the 500 MW project as the means of moving beyond its
>> chicken-or-egg
>> impasse. Producing that much electricity will require 20,000
>> dishes, built
>> in a steadily increasing flow over several years. "We're ramping
>> up now,"
>> says Osborn.
>>
>> He expects to have 40 dishes in place for a 1 MW facility by the
>> end of
>> next
>> year, followed by 50 MW in 2008. The electricity will be
>> delivered only
>> when
>> the sun is shining, but that's when the utility's customers
>> place peak
>> demands on electricity. "Our system is a really good match,
>> providing peak
>> power at times of peak load," notes Osborn.
>>
>> The price per kilowatt-hour (kWh) that SCE will pay is
>> confidential and
>> must
>> be approved by the California Public Utilities Commission. But
>> there's
>> little doubt that the contract will get a thumbs-up, perhaps as
>> soon as
>> next
>> month. One reason: SCE says the price it negotiated is so
>> attractive --
>> "well below the 11.33 cents per kWh" it now pays for peak power
>> -- that it
>> won't seek any subsidies from the state.
>>
>> Subsidies have been a common means of jump-starting solar
>> projects in
>> California and 46 other states. Early this year, Governor Arnold
>> Schwarzenegger unveiled his Million Solar Roofs Initiative,
>> calling for an
>> additional 3,000 MW of solar power by around 2017. If the
>> Million Solar
>> Roofs Initiative passes next month, as expected, homeowners who
>> install
>> solar energy systems will earn a 7.5% state income-tax credit,
>> in addition
>> to other state incentives and the new 30% federal tax credit.
>>
>> Consumers, of course, are unlikely to plant Stirling Energy's
>> huge 37-foot
>> dishes in their backyards, even if they are the most efficient
>> solar
>> generators around. But the technology dovetails nicely with
>> California's
>> mandate that utilities must derive 20% of their electricity from
>> renewable
>> sources by 2017 -- and Schwarzenegger would like to boost that
>> goal to 33%
>> by 2020. Osborn says that 11 square-mile dish farms could
>> produce as much
>> electricity as the 2,050 MW from Hoover Dam. "We're already
>> looking at a
>> half-dozen one-square-mile sites in the California desert," he
>> says, "and
>> there's lots and lots more territory there."
>>
>> Theoretically, Stirling dish farms with a total area of 100
>> miles square
>> could replace all the fossil fuels now burned to generate
>> electricity in
>> the
>> entire U.S. What happens in the California desert over the next
>> few years
>> could determine whether thermal solar power can help end the
>> dominance of
>> fossil fuels.
>>
>> By Otis Port in New York
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bioenergy and Sustainable Technology Society
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Hurford
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 4:04 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: FW: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar
>> Energy"
>>
>> The big issue in all of these alternative energy sources is one
>> of true
>> energy cost; not just dollars.
>>
>>  In other words, if you spend a megawatt of power to produce a
>> device that
>> can only yield 0.75 megawatts over its lifetime, then the
>> process is
>> inefficient. This has been the case with solar photovoltaic
>> panels (this
>> according to the late Dr. Howard T Odum of UF's College of
>> Environmental
>> Engineering and Sciences). This is also the case with batteries.
>> It is
>> their
>> portability that gives them value, not energy efficiency.
>>
>>  That is not to say that solar photovoltaic panels have no
>> value. When
>> used
>> with rechargeable batteries, they are excellent for remote
>> lighting needs
>> where providing permanent AC power would be prohibitive, such as
>> blinking
>> stop lights on remote rural roads. They are great for many
>> low-power items
>> like calculators and clocks. But, thinking that this energy
>> source can
>> produce the quantity of electrical power used in this county is
>> na?ve.
>>
>>  As an exercise, calculate the number of panels necessary to
>> produce 1100
>> megawatts per hour of 240 Volt, 300 Amp service. Eleven hundred
>> megawatts
>> is
>> the power rating of just one of the nuclear units at the Crystal
>> River
>> Power
>> Station.
>>
>>  As to hydrogen as a fuel produced from other energy sources, the
>> thermodynamic efficiencies quickly indicate the negative energy
>> result. If
>> we assume a 50% efficiency for each power conversion ( a
>> generously liberal
>> value), we can see that as a primary fuel, Hydrogen is not the
>> way to go.
>> Like solar panels; however, hydrogen fuel will have a niche
>> where it's
>> other
>> values out way the negative energy condition.
>>
>>  To illustrate the point, compare the thermodynamic efficiency
>> for
>> producing
>> one unit of output power from a hydrogen system and one unit of
>> output
>> power
>> from a diesel fuel system. Both system are primarily fueled by
>> diesel oil.
>>
>>  HYDROGEN SYSTEM:
>>
>> Fuel 1 Power station 2 Hydrogen generation 3
>>
>>  Hydrogen conversion 4 Output
>>
>>  Four conversion steps at 50% efficiency require 16 units of
>> input power
>> for
>> one unit of output power.
>>
>> DIESEL:
>>
>> Fuel 1 Power station 2 Output
>>
>>  Two conversion steps at 50% efficiency require four units of
>> input power
>> for one unit of output power.
>>
>> Therefore, for the same amount of useful output power, the
>> direct use of
>> primary fuel yields the least consumption of the polluting
>> energy source.
>> "Clean" hydrogen actual produces four times the pollution as the
>> "dirty"
>> diesel engine.
>>
>>  Bio-fuels are wrought with all of the same efficiency issues,
>> and yield
>> the
>> same green house gases as any carbon based fuel.
>>
>>  Producing "Green energy" from a waste stream, such as the Archer
>> Southwest
>> Landfill, does reduce the amount of fossil fuel a community
>> would consume,
>> however, the carbon dioxide issue still exists.
>>
>>  Conservation and improved efficiencies are the best methods for
>> reducing
>> the quantity of fossil fuel.
>>
>>  This is not the end-all with respect to this subject, but
>> considering the
>> issues raised, maybe the researches will consider the most
>> rewarding paths
>> to pursue.
>>  On 9/19/05, Marcelo Dias de Oliveira <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > That must be a really nice presentation.
>> > It combines the use of the most promising renewable source -
>> solar
>> > energy, used for producing a fuel that might become very
>> important in
>> > terms of environment emissions. Unfortunately I don't have at
>> the top
>> > of my head some technical information to emphasize the
>> importance of
>> > this approach, what of course will be given during the
>> presentation.
>> > But I for sure recommend everyone interested in renewable
>> sources and
>> > sustainable fuel production to attend this presentation.
>> > That is, if my recommendation is worth any attention.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Marcelo.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Brian Becker<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:42 PM
>> > Subject: FW: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar
>> Energy"
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: American Solar Energy Society at UF
>> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 4:35 PM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > Subject: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar
>> Energy"
>> >
>> > Dear Members,
>> >
>> > ASES will be holding its first meeting of Fall 2005 tomorrow
>> (Tuesday)
>> > at the Reitz Union. The highlight of the meeting will be a
>> talk by Dr.
>> > Ingley on "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy".
>> >
>> > Date : Tuesday, September 20, 2005
>> > Time : 6:00 PM
>> > Place : Reitz Union, #282
>> > Talk : "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy" by Dr. Ingley
>> >
>> >
>> > We will also discuss about the upcoming Gainesville Solar Home
>> Tour
>> > which is scheduled for October 2, 2005. For more information
>> about the
>> > Tour, please visit www.mae.ufl.edu/ases
>> <http://www.mae.ufl.edu/ases><
>> > http://www.mae.ufl.edu/ases>
>> >
>> > If you have any questions, please contact us at
>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:
>> > [log in to unmask]>
>> >
>
>



--
BYRNE,HEATHER E