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BEST-L  September 2005

BEST-L September 2005

Subject:

Re: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy"

From:

Marcelo Dias de Oliveira <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Bioenergy and Sustainable Technology Society <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:59:40 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (671 lines)

Sure you could read it.
I have a electronic version but is at my home.
I can try to send to you by email ( it is about 4-5 Mega), or give the CD to
you.
I don't know if you are aware that I am Brazilian, and also that my city is
located in the area that has probably the biggest concentration of sugarcane
plantations and ethanol distilleries in the country.
When are you leaving to Brazil?
I think we could talk before you leave, so I could give you some tips.

Cheers,

Marcelo.



>From: "BYRNE,HEATHER E" <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Bioenergy and Sustainable Technology Society
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy"
>Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:22:41 -0400
>
>Marcelo-
>My name is Heather and I'm in grad school in the Environmental
>engineering department.  I took industrial ecology this summer
>with Dr. Delfino and we discussed a lot about the ethanol issues.
>Could I read your dissertation?
>I am also going to Brazil next week, were ethanol production and
>use is soaring, so I am very interested to learn more.
>Thanks,
>Heather
>
>
>
>On Thu Sep 22 11:05:42 EDT 2005, Marcelo Dias de Oliveira
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>Allow me to participate of this discussion. I don't have the same
>>authority
>>and/or  knowledge of you guys, but I want to participate anyway.
>>
>>
>>Most of you don't know me. My master's dissertation was on
>>ethanol fuel
>>production and environmental impacts.
>>
>>
>>For what I will write I don't have data at the top of my mind.
>>But I don't
>>think
>>numbers are the big issue here.
>>
>>
>>
>>I do realize that there are some serious problems when
>>considering the use
>>of
>>renewable sources to substitute fossil fuels in large scale
>>considering
>>current
>>scenarios. Actually during our work (also Dr. Burton Vaughan and
>>Dr. Edward
>>Rykiel Jr. from WSU), we came to a conclusion that would be
>>unfeasible in
>>terms
>>of cropland requirements, for the whole US passengers cars fleet
>>to use
>>ethanol.
>>
>>However in our conclusions we did not totally disregard the use
>>of ethanol
>>fuel,
>>basically because Increasing research might improve efficiency of
>>fuel
>>ethanol
>>production, reducing its energy costs and environmental impacts
>>to a point
>>that
>>ethanol could have fractional participation  along with other
>>sources on the
>>role of substituting fossil fuels.
>>
>>
>>I have the sense (and lack of data), that the amount of solar
>>energy that
>>reaches the earth in a daily basis should be a factor encouraging
>>the
>>pursuit of
>>the efficient utilization of this energy source. Here again,
>>research might
>>play
>>a big role, bigger than in ethanol, in my opinion.
>>
>>
>>We would not be using cell phones today if we decided back on the
>>80's,
>>considering costs and other technical aspects, that it was
>>worthless to
>>invest
>>in such technology.
>>
>>
>>Also the potential for Hydrogen production need to be better
>>assessed, not
>>only
>>considering current scenarios.
>>
>>
>>Again, I acknowledge that current scenarios are not very
>>favorable for
>>renewable
>>sources at large scales, however, just disregarding those options
>>doesn't
>>seem
>>wise to me.
>>
>>I agree with Dr. Humphrey that we should have a more optimistic
>>view in this
>>issue and I wanted to thank him for sharing information about
>>solar energy
>>ongoing projects and perspectives.
>>
>>I also agree with Dr. Hurford about nuclear energy potential, and
>>also want
>>thank him for sharing all those information.  As an immediate
>>alternative
>>source
>>for fossil fuels, nuclear energy is readily available, and could
>>have a
>>great
>>contribution.
>>
>>Nuclear generating does not generate CO2, and it has
>>inconsequential other
>>pollution features.
>>
>>The main objections to nuclear power have been a) radiation
>>health
>>hazard, b) potential for diversion of nuclear fuel to warfare
>>purposes,
>>and c) uneconomical without massive subsidy. The first two
>>considerations are potential problems, only; the last
>>consideration was
>>true in the past, but can no longer be claimed.
>>
>>
>>I am not advocating adoption of one or another option for the
>>future, at
>>least
>>not right now. Although I confess I already had better
>>expectation about
>>renewable sources. My biggest hope still relies on the sun
>>energy.
>>
>>I think the energy issues should be carefully and unbiased
>>analyzed.  And
>>these
>>kind of discussions are very important. Current scenarios are not
>>favorable
>>to
>>renewable energy in large scale; nuclear power might be an
>>immediate option.
>>But we should not rely just on current scenarios.
>>
>>Again, as an environmentalist and ecologist, my hopes rely on the
>>sun.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thank you all for the attention,
>>
>>Marcelo.
>>
>>
>>>From: Steve Humphrey <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Reply-To: Bioenergy and Sustainable Technology Society
>>><[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy"
>>>Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:51:07 -0400
>>>
>>>Two aphorisms come to mind:
>>>"Optimists and pessimists both get what they expect."
>>>"If you drive a car only looking in the rear-view mirror,
>>>eventually you
>>>will run off the road."
>>>
>>>To learn more about what is happening and what may be possible,
>>>it is a
>>>challenge to keep our minds open to new possibilities.  The news
>>>is
>>>helpful.
>>>For example see the following from Forbes.com:
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>BP Solar to start building world's largest solar power plant in
>>>Portugal
>>>next yr
>>>09.13.2005, 03:59 PM
>>>LISBON (AFX) - BP PLC unit BP Solar will begin building the
>>>world's biggest
>>>solar energy power station in Portugal next year, Portuguese
>>>officials
>>>said.
>>>'The construction of the station will begin in 2006, it is
>>>irreversible,'
>>>Moura mayor Jose Maria Pos-de-Mina was quoted as saying by Lusa
>>>news
>>>agency.
>>>The plant is expected to be completed in 2009 and will have a
>>>total cost of
>>>250 mln eur. The town of Moura owns the majority of the firm
>>>which will
>>>oversee the solar power station project, Amper Central Solar.
>>>The plant
>>>will
>>>have 350,000 solar panels spread over 114 hectares near the
>>>southern town
>>>of
>>>Moura and will be able to produce 62 megawatts, more than six
>>>times the
>>>largest existing solar power station in Germany. 'This is a
>>>unique project
>>>and the world's most ambitious in terms of final capacity,' said
>>>BP Solar
>>>commercial director for southern Europe, Francisco Conesa,
>>>according to
>>>Lusa.
>>>--------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>For another example, see the appended news story from
>>>BusinessWeek.
>>>
>>>It is helpful for example to read the current trade
>>>publications, such as
>>>Environmental Science & Technology Magazine.  Perhaps others on
>>>this list
>>>could recommend publications worth being on our personal reading
>>>lists.
>>>
>>>It is also useful to examine what companies are doing to
>>>commercialize
>>>proven concepts.  For example, the WilderHill Clean Energy Index
>>>(ECO)
>>>provides a list of "pure" alternative energy companies at
>>>http://www.wilderhill.com/about.html (scroll down to the list at
>>>the
>>>bottom).  There is an exchange-traded fund of stocks (PBW) that
>>>tracks this
>>>index http://www.powershares.com/pbwfund.asp.  You can research
>>>what these
>>>companies are doing to transform the energy system.  Beyond this
>>>list are
>>>"greening companies" that are not pure "clean energy" companies,
>>>like GE
>>>and
>>>Toyota, which are nonetheless making major moves to transition
>>>toward
>>>cleaner energy.  Both green and greening initiatives are quite
>>>interesting.
>>>
>>>Dr. Stephen R. Humphrey, Director of Academic Programs,
>>>School of Natural Resources and Environment,
>>>Box 116455, 103 Black Hall, University of Florida,
>>>Gainesville, FL  32611-6455  USA
>>>Tel. 352-392-9230, Fax 352-392-9748
>>>http://snre.ufl.edu
>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>SEPTEMBER 12, 2005   ?  Editions: N. America | Europe | Asia |
>>>Edition
>>>Preference
>>>
>>>SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY
>>>
>>>Power From The Sunbaked Desert
>>>Solar generators may be a hot source of plentiful electricity
>>>
>>>Before President George W. Bush signed the federal energy bill
>>>into law on
>>>Aug. 8, he got a firsthand glimpse of a technology that could
>>>transform the
>>>deserts of the Southwest. Instead of a sandy wasteland, there
>>>would be
>>>gleaming farms with thousands of giant dish-shaped mirrors
>>>measuring 37
>>>feet
>>>in diameter. Each dish would track the sun and focus its heat
>>>rays on an
>>>oil-barrel-size contraption suspended out in front, harnessing
>>>the heat to
>>>drive a 25-kilowatt generator. Advertisement
>>>
>>>Plant enough of these solar-dish farms, Bush learned on his tour
>>>of Sandia
>>>National Laboratories' National Solar Thermal Test Facility near
>>>Albuquerque, and they could mightily reduce the need for
>>>electric power
>>>plants that burn fossil fuels and emit carbon dioxide.
>>>
>>>MOJAVE MEGAWATTS
>>>The day after the Presidential tour, Sandia's vision began to
>>>look a lot
>>>more real. The supplier of the solar-thermal dish generators,
>>>Stirling
>>>Energy Systems Inc. in Phoenix, won a major commitment from
>>>Southern
>>>California Edison Inc. (EIX ) (SCE): For 20 years the utility
>>>will buy all
>>>the electricity that Stirling Energy can generate at a
>>>500-megawatt solar
>>>energy farm that Stirling will build in the Mojave Desert near
>>>Victorville,
>>>Calif. This could be the biggest solar installation in the world
>>>-- equal
>>>to
>>>a typical coal-fired plant. And if local power lines can be
>>>upgraded to
>>>handle more juice, Stirling could enlarge the facility to 850 MW
>>>-- and SCE
>>>would take all of that, too.
>>>
>>>Stirling's deal was made possible by several trends that are
>>>pushing
>>>alternative energy into the mainstream. As oil has become more
>>>expensive,
>>>so
>>>have natural gas and coal, the primary fuels for power plants.
>>>At the same
>>>time, concerns about global warming have prompted lawmakers --
>>>local,
>>>state,
>>>and now the feds -- to unleash incentives for renewable energy.
>>>Wind power,
>>>solar energy, geothermal, and biomass fuels are all benefiting.
>>>
>>>If the dishes do well, Stirling Energy's 4,500-acre desert farm
>>>will usher
>>>in new potential for Stirling engines, invented in 1816 by
>>>Church of
>>>Scotland minister Robert Stirling. His engine is ideal for green
>>>energy
>>>because it doesn't burn fuel internally. Instead, its pistons
>>>are driven by
>>>heating and expanding a reservoir of gas, which then cools for
>>>the next
>>>cycle. Using the sun's energy to heat the gas means zero fuel is
>>>burned.
>>>
>>>Stirling Energy stands to rake in upwards of $90 million a year
>>>once the
>>>solar dishes are generating 500 MW in 2011. For SCE, already the
>>>largest
>>>purchaser of renewable energy in the U.S., the extra 500 MW will
>>>more than
>>>double the 354 MW of solar power it tapped in 2004 from nine
>>>other
>>>solar-thermal operations in the Mojave. It will also add almost
>>>20% to
>>>SCE's
>>>2,588 MW of renewable energy sources, including 1,021 MW of wind
>>>power.
>>>Last
>>>year more than 18% of the electricity that the utility delivered
>>>to its
>>>customers came from renewables.
>>>
>>>Monster dish-shaped "heat antennas" are hardly familiar icons of
>>>green
>>>power. People tend to associate solar energy with flat, glassy
>>>panels that
>>>convert photons from sunlight into electric current. But such
>>>photovoltaic
>>>cells don't produce power as efficiently as Stirling dish
>>>generators. Cells
>>>typically convert just 10% to 15% of the sun's light -- and many
>>>cells
>>>perform at just half that level. In contrast, Stirling dishes
>>>achieve
>>>almost
>>>30% in Sandia's six-dish system. "Later this year we'll do even
>>>better,"
>>>declares D. Bruce Osborn, Stirling Energy's new CEO and a
>>>longtime solar
>>>proponent.
>>>
>>>DAYTIME ONLY
>>>Why hasn't Stirling Energy's technology made more of a splash in
>>>the power
>>>business? "Our dilemma has always been how to get costs down,"
>>>explains
>>>Osborn. The dish assemblies now run $250,000 each. But that's
>>>because most
>>>have been handcrafted in sporadic lots of one or two units.
>>>Building a
>>>group
>>>of 40 or so would trim the cost to $150,000 each, Osborn
>>>estimates. With
>>>real mass production, that could drop by 50%.
>>>
>>>So when SCE said it wanted to buy more renewable energy,
>>>Osborn's outfit
>>>proposed the 500 MW project as the means of moving beyond its
>>>chicken-or-egg
>>>impasse. Producing that much electricity will require 20,000
>>>dishes, built
>>>in a steadily increasing flow over several years. "We're ramping
>>>up now,"
>>>says Osborn.
>>>
>>>He expects to have 40 dishes in place for a 1 MW facility by the
>>>end of
>>>next
>>>year, followed by 50 MW in 2008. The electricity will be
>>>delivered only
>>>when
>>>the sun is shining, but that's when the utility's customers
>>>place peak
>>>demands on electricity. "Our system is a really good match,
>>>providing peak
>>>power at times of peak load," notes Osborn.
>>>
>>>The price per kilowatt-hour (kWh) that SCE will pay is
>>>confidential and
>>>must
>>>be approved by the California Public Utilities Commission. But
>>>there's
>>>little doubt that the contract will get a thumbs-up, perhaps as
>>>soon as
>>>next
>>>month. One reason: SCE says the price it negotiated is so
>>>attractive --
>>>"well below the 11.33 cents per kWh" it now pays for peak power
>>>-- that it
>>>won't seek any subsidies from the state.
>>>
>>>Subsidies have been a common means of jump-starting solar
>>>projects in
>>>California and 46 other states. Early this year, Governor Arnold
>>>Schwarzenegger unveiled his Million Solar Roofs Initiative,
>>>calling for an
>>>additional 3,000 MW of solar power by around 2017. If the
>>>Million Solar
>>>Roofs Initiative passes next month, as expected, homeowners who
>>>install
>>>solar energy systems will earn a 7.5% state income-tax credit,
>>>in addition
>>>to other state incentives and the new 30% federal tax credit.
>>>
>>>Consumers, of course, are unlikely to plant Stirling Energy's
>>>huge 37-foot
>>>dishes in their backyards, even if they are the most efficient
>>>solar
>>>generators around. But the technology dovetails nicely with
>>>California's
>>>mandate that utilities must derive 20% of their electricity from
>>>renewable
>>>sources by 2017 -- and Schwarzenegger would like to boost that
>>>goal to 33%
>>>by 2020. Osborn says that 11 square-mile dish farms could
>>>produce as much
>>>electricity as the 2,050 MW from Hoover Dam. "We're already
>>>looking at a
>>>half-dozen one-square-mile sites in the California desert," he
>>>says, "and
>>>there's lots and lots more territory there."
>>>
>>>Theoretically, Stirling dish farms with a total area of 100
>>>miles square
>>>could replace all the fossil fuels now burned to generate
>>>electricity in
>>>the
>>>entire U.S. What happens in the California desert over the next
>>>few years
>>>could determine whether thermal solar power can help end the
>>>dominance of
>>>fossil fuels.
>>>
>>>By Otis Port in New York
>>>-----------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Bioenergy and Sustainable Technology Society
>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Hurford
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 4:04 PM
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: Re: FW: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar
>>>Energy"
>>>
>>>The big issue in all of these alternative energy sources is one
>>>of true
>>>energy cost; not just dollars.
>>>
>>>  In other words, if you spend a megawatt of power to produce a
>>>device that
>>>can only yield 0.75 megawatts over its lifetime, then the
>>>process is
>>>inefficient. This has been the case with solar photovoltaic
>>>panels (this
>>>according to the late Dr. Howard T Odum of UF's College of
>>>Environmental
>>>Engineering and Sciences). This is also the case with batteries.
>>>It is
>>>their
>>>portability that gives them value, not energy efficiency.
>>>
>>>  That is not to say that solar photovoltaic panels have no
>>>value. When
>>>used
>>>with rechargeable batteries, they are excellent for remote
>>>lighting needs
>>>where providing permanent AC power would be prohibitive, such as
>>>blinking
>>>stop lights on remote rural roads. They are great for many
>>>low-power items
>>>like calculators and clocks. But, thinking that this energy
>>>source can
>>>produce the quantity of electrical power used in this county is
>>>na?ve.
>>>
>>>  As an exercise, calculate the number of panels necessary to
>>>produce 1100
>>>megawatts per hour of 240 Volt, 300 Amp service. Eleven hundred
>>>megawatts
>>>is
>>>the power rating of just one of the nuclear units at the Crystal
>>>River
>>>Power
>>>Station.
>>>
>>>  As to hydrogen as a fuel produced from other energy sources, the
>>>thermodynamic efficiencies quickly indicate the negative energy
>>>result. If
>>>we assume a 50% efficiency for each power conversion ( a
>>>generously liberal
>>>value), we can see that as a primary fuel, Hydrogen is not the
>>>way to go.
>>>Like solar panels; however, hydrogen fuel will have a niche
>>>where it's
>>>other
>>>values out way the negative energy condition.
>>>
>>>  To illustrate the point, compare the thermodynamic efficiency
>>>for
>>>producing
>>>one unit of output power from a hydrogen system and one unit of
>>>output
>>>power
>>>from a diesel fuel system. Both system are primarily fueled by
>>>diesel oil.
>>>
>>>  HYDROGEN SYSTEM:
>>>
>>>Fuel 1 Power station 2 Hydrogen generation 3
>>>
>>>  Hydrogen conversion 4 Output
>>>
>>>  Four conversion steps at 50% efficiency require 16 units of
>>>input power
>>>for
>>>one unit of output power.
>>>
>>>DIESEL:
>>>
>>>Fuel 1 Power station 2 Output
>>>
>>>  Two conversion steps at 50% efficiency require four units of
>>>input power
>>>for one unit of output power.
>>>
>>>Therefore, for the same amount of useful output power, the
>>>direct use of
>>>primary fuel yields the least consumption of the polluting
>>>energy source.
>>>"Clean" hydrogen actual produces four times the pollution as the
>>>"dirty"
>>>diesel engine.
>>>
>>>  Bio-fuels are wrought with all of the same efficiency issues,
>>>and yield
>>>the
>>>same green house gases as any carbon based fuel.
>>>
>>>  Producing "Green energy" from a waste stream, such as the Archer
>>>Southwest
>>>Landfill, does reduce the amount of fossil fuel a community
>>>would consume,
>>>however, the carbon dioxide issue still exists.
>>>
>>>  Conservation and improved efficiencies are the best methods for
>>>reducing
>>>the quantity of fossil fuel.
>>>
>>>  This is not the end-all with respect to this subject, but
>>>considering the
>>>issues raised, maybe the researches will consider the most
>>>rewarding paths
>>>to pursue.
>>>  On 9/19/05, Marcelo Dias de Oliveira <[log in to unmask]>
>>>wrote:
>>> >
>>> > That must be a really nice presentation.
>>> > It combines the use of the most promising renewable source -
>>>solar
>>> > energy, used for producing a fuel that might become very
>>>important in
>>> > terms of environment emissions. Unfortunately I don't have at
>>>the top
>>> > of my head some technical information to emphasize the
>>>importance of
>>> > this approach, what of course will be given during the
>>>presentation.
>>> > But I for sure recommend everyone interested in renewable
>>>sources and
>>> > sustainable fuel production to attend this presentation.
>>> > That is, if my recommendation is worth any attention.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Marcelo.
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: Brian Becker<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:42 PM
>>> > Subject: FW: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar
>>>Energy"
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: American Solar Energy Society at UF
>>> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>>> > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 4:35 PM
>>> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> > Subject: ASES Meeting - "Hydrogen Production using Solar
>>>Energy"
>>> >
>>> > Dear Members,
>>> >
>>> > ASES will be holding its first meeting of Fall 2005 tomorrow
>>>(Tuesday)
>>> > at the Reitz Union. The highlight of the meeting will be a
>>>talk by Dr.
>>> > Ingley on "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy".
>>> >
>>> > Date : Tuesday, September 20, 2005
>>> > Time : 6:00 PM
>>> > Place : Reitz Union, #282
>>> > Talk : "Hydrogen Production using Solar Energy" by Dr. Ingley
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > We will also discuss about the upcoming Gainesville Solar Home
>>>Tour
>>> > which is scheduled for October 2, 2005. For more information
>>>about the
>>> > Tour, please visit www.mae.ufl.edu/ases
>>><http://www.mae.ufl.edu/ases><
>>> > http://www.mae.ufl.edu/ases>
>>> >
>>> > If you have any questions, please contact us at
>>>[log in to unmask]<mailto:
>>> > [log in to unmask]>
>>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>BYRNE,HEATHER E

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