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This is an excellent point!
"Walters, Billy J." wrote:
> I agree with Bill Cosby. "If you want to be successful, you must learn
> to speak and write in a way that is acceptable in the business world."
> I live in the South and I have no problem understanding the traditional
> southern expressions, however, companies doing business nationally and
> internationally will not hire employees who express themselves using
> that dialogue.
>
> Billy Walters
> Director, Academic Support Services & Distance Education
> Columbia State Community College
> 1665 Hampshire Pike
> Columbia, TN 38401
> Phone: 931-540-2705
> FAX: 931-540-2702
> [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nic Voge
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Language, status and discrimination
>
> Makes sense, David-Michael, as far as it goes. People do, indeed, use
> different registers to talk with people of different statuses and in
> different situations (e.g. formal vs. informal.), but of course the
> issue is that what is considered "formal" and "organized" speech is
> not the same for all speech communities. What is organized writing to
> me is not the same for many East Asian writers, what is organized
> story-telling for me is often not the same for Native Hawaiian
> speakers (Google "talk story"), and the narrative structures of many
> African-American speech communities have different features than the
> story grammars of many Standard American English speaking
> communities. By what criteria do we determine whether someone's
> communication is "organized" and "formal"? Communication is rooted in
> conventions and thus reciprocal expectations. I think we need to be
> careful that we don't equate "not meeting our expectations" with
> "disorganized". If we don't, then "organized" merely becomes a proxy
> for correct or proper. As critical listeners and speakers shouldn't
> we take as our goal (if not responsibility) to understand our
> interlocuters from their points of view and thus try to see how their
> speech is organized and formal TO THEM?
>
> From this perspective the perfectly reasonable dictum you state below
> can be turned around: An educated person should be able to understand
> people even if they don't communicate in the ways that such a person
> would consider formal and organized.
>
> Best,
> Nic
>
> >My approach to this issue is to remind students that everyone
> >communicates differently with different people. For example, the
> >language we use with our parents is usually different from the language
> >we use with our friends. An educated person should be able to
> >communicate in a formal, organized manner.
> >
> >David-Michael Allen, Ph.D.
> >Donnelly College
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals
> >[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jessica Nettles
> >Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:32 AM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Language, status and discrimination
> >
> >I also agree with Nic. While society designates some language varieties
> >as "low-status," there is no true "correct" or "incorrect" English. I
> >find it to be much more productive to spend time explaining how
> students
> >can use "standardized" English to their advantage, and how
> >"standardization" can help them be understood by a larger audience. I
> >find this to be an ah-ha moment for many of my students that do speak
> >and write in a "low status" form of English. I also like to emphasize
> >that none of us really speak "standardized" English, but we speak (and
> >often write) the language we're most often exposed to. To tell them
> that
> >the language they learned from birth is "incorrect" is demeaning, and
> >defeats the purpose of teaching standardized English. As native
> >Georgian, I know that there are infinite versions of English that are
> >spoken, and even the pidgeon languages such as our own Geechee and
> >Gullah languages add spice and variety to the symphony of language that
> >we hear every single day. To say it's incorrect is not acceptable.
> >
> >Of course, everyone else has probably said this before...
> >Jess
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Jessica Nettles
> >Instructor of Developmental English and Reading Chattahoochee Technical
> >College, Main Campus Room B-152
> >(770) 528-4544
> >[log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >"Nature is a haunted house--but Art--is a house that tries to be
> >haunted."
> >Emily Dickinson
> >
> >________________________________
> >
> >From: Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals on behalf of
> beth
> >kupper-herr
> >Sent: Tue 2/13/2007 8:21 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Language, status and discrimination
> >
> >
> >
> >Similar to Black English, Hawaiian Creole English (HCE -- popularly
> >known as "Hawaiian pidgin") is also a low-status language. (It is, in
> >fact, linguistically distinct from English and has its own grammatical
> >structure and intonation pattern.) Generations of native speakers of
> >HCE have referred to their language as "broken English", and it is
> >regarded by many
> >-- including many employers -- as less desirable or acceptable than
> >standard American English. For many native HCE speakers, the adaptive
> >solution has been to learn standard English and to "code-switch"
> between
> >the two languages as appropriate to the situation. I believe it's
> >possible for people to do this as a practical strategy without feeling
> >like they are inferior. I also agree with Nic that a dualistic view of
> >language is not productive.
> >
> > beth
> >
> >)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
> (
> >(((
> >
> >Beth Kupper-Herr
> >Professor
> >Coordinator, Learning Resource Center
> >Leeward Community College
> >96-045 Ala Ike
> >Pearl City, HI 96782
> >e-mail: [log in to unmask]
> >phone/voice mail: (808) 455-0413
> >
> >)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
> (
> >(((
> >
> >> Rae,
> >> Thanks for picking this thread back up.
> >> When thinking of language variety or dialect (not "accent"), I think
> >> it is important to make a distinction between the rule-governed
> nature
> >
> >> of a variety of language and its social, political and economic
> >> status. This distinction is suggested by the quote from McClendon
> >> below. He points out that "Black English" (note that not all Black
> >> people speak this variety, and persons who would not be considered
> >> black do, in fact, speak this variety) has features he likes, but
> that
> >
> >> speaking it can lead to being discriminated against.
> >> That is, because the language is low status, those who speak it may
> be
> >
> >> treated as low status, denied access to full participation in our
> >> society, and judged inferior in some way. So, while so-called Black
> >> English is as legitimate a variety of language as any other in
> terms
> >> syntax, phonology, morphology, etc. it is not considered legitimate
> by
> >
> >> most in dominate positions in our society. This is a social
> judgement,
> >
> >> not a linguistic one. Few, if any, linguists would say that Standard
> >> American English is "better" linguistically than Black English. Why,
> >> indeed, should we even use dualisms of "better and worse", "correct
> >> and incorrect" when thinking about language? Is green "better" than
> >> orange? Is a chicken an incorrect variety of bird because it does
> not
> >> fly?
> >>
> >> So, I would ask Mr McClendon, "better" for what? Better
> grammatically?
> >
> >> Linguistic evidence doesn't support that claim. Better in terms of
> >> having access to power? I would agree. But at what price to these
> >> speakers do we seek to change their ways of speaking to be like the
> >> standard?
> >>
> >> So, when we as educators attempt to "improve" our students'
> >> dialects, we need to be aware that we are not teaching "correct"
> >> English, but rather, "conventional" and "codified" English that
> >> reflects the ways of speaking of those who do the codifying.
> >> Nic
> >>
> >>
> >>> Our College recently invited writer, diversity trainer and talk
> show
> >>> host Garrard McClendon to speak on his new book "Ax or Ask? The
> >>> African American Guide to Better English." Our student newspaper
> ran
> >
> >>> an article on McClendon. He is quoted as saying, "I love Black
> >>> English, it's comfortable, rhythmic, but use it all the time and
> you
> >>> can be discriminated against. Sometimes we blame things on color,
> >>> when it could be dialect." He reminded the audience that there is
> no
> >
> >>> such word as "squoze" or "irregardless." In addition to his book,
> >>> McClendon has created a website blackenglish.com to further educate
> >>> African Americans.
> >>>
> >>> I, myself, have not reviewed his book; and I have briefly visited
> his
> >
> >>> website. You may find one or both helpful.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Rae M. Maslana, M.Ed., NCC, LPC
> >>> Certified Learning Center Leadership Professional - Level 4 College
> >>> of DuPage Coordinator, Tutoring Services Academic Support Center,
> IC
> >>> 3040
> >>> (630) 942-3681
> >>> and
> >>> C.O.D. Counselor
> >>> (630) 942-4804 - Westmont Center
> >>> (630)942-4603 - Addison Center
> >>>
> >>> Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that
> >>> matter.
> >>> -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> --
>
> Knowledge emerges only through invention and reinvention, through
> the restless, impatient, continuing, hopeful inquiry men pursue in
> the world, with the world, and with each other. --Paolo Freire
>
> Dominic (Nic) J. Voge
> Study Strategies Program Coordinator
> University of California, Berkeley
> Student Learning Center
> 136 Cesar Chavez Student Center #4260
> Berkeley, CA 94720-4260
>
> (510) 643-9278
> [log in to unmask]
> http://slc.berkeley.edu
>
> Spring 2007 Office Hours
> By Appointment:
> Monday 10-11
> Wednesday 10-11
> Thursday 11-1
> Friday 10-11, 2-4
> Drop-in:
> Tuesday 3-4
> Wednesday 4-5
>
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--
Evanthia O. Rosati
Reading and Study Skills Specialist
The Learning Center
[log in to unmask]
(847)635-1795
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. "
- Albert Einstein
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