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PSYART  May 2009, Week 3

PSYART May 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: neuropsychoanalysis

From:

Murray Schwartz <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 16 May 2009 06:22:48 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

Hi, Norm,

Your comment about the mind/brain is well taken, but there is more to my caveat about neuropsy.  Psychoanalysis is not only a therapy (or therapies) but a theory (or theories) about the structure, development and limits of the human psyche.  Neuropsychoanalysis is a branch of psychoanalytic inquiry that seeks to understand neurological activity in order to answer questions like the one you pose.  I think this is an important development, fascinating and, as you say in your blog, more obviously cumulative than much else in psychoanalysis.  However, psychoanalysis (psychoanalyses) poses questions, defines concepts and theories that are responsive to the human condition in ways that neurology doesn't, and this is why I keep insisting on keeping the range of psychoanalytic inquiry open, and not limited to those aspects of the inquiry that can fit the methods of neurology.  There is a moral dimension to my insistence, I believe, which derives, perhaps, from awareness of the ways "physiological treatments" can be used to manipulate (or destroy) human experience (and life).  Kandel, for example, advocates "therapeutic" uses of neurological understanding of memory that would "correct" "false beliefs".  No doubt, he has the best of intentions, but both/and should include the fullness of psychoanalytic inquiry and not simply relegate the "mind" part of the relation to those aspects of psychoanalysis that are available to neurological inquiry as the brain scientists determine.  

I have the sense that we are not disagreeing but emphasizing different perspectives on the mind/brain problem.

Warm regards,

Murray   


-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts on behalf of Norman Holland
Sent: Fri 5/15/2009 3:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: neuropsychoanalysis
 
Hi, Murray,

You ask, "How can we have both/and if we only show that phenomena identified
by psychoanalytic concepts go with certain real, physical conditions and
activities in the brain?"

I think, in this discussion, we are stumbling over the perhaps insoluble
problem of mind/brain.  Psychoanalysis as a therapy addresses mind.
Neuropsychoanalysis is not a therapy, but could lead to physiological
treatments (drugs, surgery).

When we talk therapy, the question becomes, which kind of treatment is best
for the patient?  When we talk theory of mind, then, I think, both/and
applies.  What in the mind activated the repressing hormones in the brain?
A question that has not been answered, but could be, I believe.

                      --With warm regards,


                                   Norm
Norm Holland

  Check out my blog, "Your Brain on Culture" at

<http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/this-is-your-brain-culture>

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Murray Schwartz <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> A few further thoughts. (My intention is to complicate matters that I think
> should be considered in their complications.)
>
> We know that traumatic experiences (please distinguish between traumatic
> experiences and what are called traumatic events; they are not the same
> thing) are sometimes vividly remembered (and cannot be "unremembered") and
> sometimes not remembered ("repressed" or "dissociated").  The experiments
> Norm cites show the activities in the brain that go with the "repression" of
> these events.  The experiments seem convincing.  I strongly suspect that
> brain scientists could also show what is going on inside one's head when a
> traumatic experience is obsessively remembered (as in forms of PTSD).  Where
> does this leave us vis a vis psychoanalysis?  The obsessive remembering is
> also "caused by" its chemical and neurological activity. How can we have
> both/and if we only show that phenomena identified by psychoanalytic
> concepts go with certain real, physical conditions and activities in the
> brain?  Are we merely developing a new, trendy vocabulary for talking about
> what we, from a psychoanaly!
>  tic point of view, already know? I am not arguing against all the
> wonderful things brainscientists are discovering, but I am trying to request
> a pause in the progress of the neuropsy bandwagon so that we can consider
> these complications carefully.
>
> Warm regards, Murray
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts on behalf of Norman
> Holland
> Sent: Wed 5/13/2009 4:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: neuropsychoanalysis
>
> Dear Reuven, Murray, Walter, Jerry, and all,
>
> Reuven Tsur writes in justification of his cognitive approach to poetics:
>
> By analogy, poetic re ductionism would be the doctrine that every literary
> "natural" kind is, or is coexten sive with, a psychological natural kind. A
> major assumption of the present cogni tive approach is that literature does
> have important operational principles that can not be exhausted in terms of
> cognitive science.
>
> This is very sensible, and applies directly to our discussion of
> neuropsychoanalysis.  It is certainly true that subjective mental
> experiences have aspects that cannot be completely described in
> neurological
> terms, and neuropsychoanalysts like Mark Solms emphasize the role of
> clinical psychoanalysis in recognizing and perhaps dealing with those
> aspects.
>
> Consider the sentence Murray quotes from the neuropsychoanalysis Wikipedia
> site (not, BTW, one of the sentences I wrote)::
>
> "Repression of trauma results from hormones shutting off the retranscribing
> action of the hippocampus."
>
> The Israelis in this experiment had traumatic experiences and now they have
> no memory of them.  It seems legitimate to explain why they have no memory
> by saying that their hippocampi did not retranscribe the immediate memory
> into long-term memory.  To ask that the hippocampal explanation of why this
> happened also explain or describe the subjective experience of the
> trauma--there is no point in that.
>
> Murray goes on to ask:   "If scientists could develop a way of preventing
> the action of these hormones, would the person remember traumatic
> experience?" And I will take the liberty of answering, yes, I think so.
> "What is the meaning of "results from"?"  Here, it means "is caused by."
> "If "retranscribing" is a metaphor, what is being metaphorized?"  What is
> being metaphorized is information in the form of neurochemical actions in
> various synapses.
>
> I'm not quite sure, Murray, what you intended by these questions, but they
> seem to me answerable in neurological terms.  They do not get at what is
> not
> answerable in neurological terms, the experience of trauma and the
> experience, if that is possible, of losing the memory of the trauma, its
> repression.
>
> BTW, if I am remembering correctly, these experiments were conducted by
> Yoram Yovell, an Israeli psychiatrist.  The traumatic events involved an
> automobile accident and a stabbing, but, of course, these particulars drop
> out of the neurological description.  One should not ask that neurology
> take
> them into account; that makes no sense.  To ask that neuropsychoanalysis
> take them into account, that does make sense.
>
>                      --With warm regards,
>
>
>                                   Norm
> Norm Holland
>
>  Check out my blog, "Your Brain on Culture" at
>
> <http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/this-is-your-brain-culture>
>

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December 1998, Week 5
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