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PSYART  October 2009, Week 2

PSYART October 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Shakespeare's complex characters vs. the personae in ancient Greek drama

From:

"Kardaun M (LK)" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:28:19 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (41 lines)

Dear Dianne,

Re-reading the interesting thread about complex characters to which you contributed so generously (thanks!), I think I slightly disagree with what you are saying here below, -- though I understand what you mean, and of course all depends on what we mean by 'complex'. However I think Nora is right that some of the figures in Greek tragedy may be seen as complex too, perhaps even to modern standards. At the very least the main figures in Greek tragedy tend to be complex, in a subtle way. The difficulty with these ancient texts is that it takes much extra time and effort to understand their (polytheistic) cultural background, and their idea of 'fate', but Greek tragedy at its peak was high literature in every respect, not just with regard to formal skills. Unlike 'primitive' folk tale tragedy is not naive at all; it has incredible psychological sophistication and depth. And the characters definitely have their unconscious set of motives.
E.g. the oldest of the three great tragedians, Aeschylus (whom we would really not expect to be 'modern' at all, because his works were written at the time that Athenian culture was still enthusiastically moving upwards, and Aeschylus never lived to see Athens' downfall), even he created what we could call psychologically complex, individual characters. One could even say that his _Oresteia_ is all about complex personalities. In the first part of this trilogy (this part is called _Agamemnon_ precisely  because it is a literary exploration of this figure), the protagonist slowly dehumanizes and this leads to his downfall. (I can explain, but it is a bit complicated, but in brief: because of the way Agamemnon is, he believes that his wife still loves him, though 1) he has killed their daughter, 2) he has been away unnecessarily for ten years, and 3) when he arrives home he has got a new girlfriend with him! How blind and conceited can you be? This is all worked out in the text, not only in the dialogues, but also in the choir parts, so  it is often indirect  information that we get. And then Agamemnon is killed by his wife and her lover, before he even knows what struck him. By contrast, in the last part of the trilogy Agamemnon's son Orestes is all in all doing quite well. Orestes had been in exactly the same terrible predicament as his father: Agamemnon had to kill his own daughter, and Orestes had to kill his own mother. Their fate is the same; the only difference is their difference in character. Unlike Agamemnon, Orestes is chased by the Erinyes (the Furies). One could say that Orestes is completely mad for over a year after he has committed his crime. He suffers from guilt feelings, and that is one of the elements in his character that save him in the end. Again, the information that we get about Orestes is often indirect, but that doesn't make his character a flat character. 

Best wishes,

Maria
________________________________________
Van: Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts [[log in to unmask]] namens dhunter [[log in to unmask]]
Verzonden: vrijdag 9 oktober 2009 18:31
Aan: [log in to unmask]
Onderwerp: Shakespeare's complex characters vs. the personae in ancient Greek drama

I don't think the personae in ancient Greek drama pass muster as complex characters in the same way Hamlet does.  No one, so far, on this list has claimed that Hamlet isn't a complex character.
Hamlet has a personality, mystery, an unconscious set of motives, a complicated relation of parts, interiority, a succession ofroles etc.  Oedipus, Antigone, Clytemnestra, Agamemnon, Orestes et al. seem to me to be types or roles, not personalities.  They play roles and don't complain about having to do so.  Racine's characters seem to me to be personae as well, not personalities in the way Shakespeare's Cleopatra has a personality.

Shakespeare's characterizations of Hamlet, Iago, and Cleopatra show them all as self-consciously playing roles.
--DH

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Nora F. Crow" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: October 8, 2009 8:34:36 AM PDT
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Compex characters
Reply-To: Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>

Dear Folks,

In our idolizing of Shakespeare, are we not forgetting characters _very_ far back in literary history, e.g., Oedipus, Antigone, and all the other creations of Sophocles, Aeschylus, and
Euripides?

Nora F. Crow
Professor
English Language and Literature
Wright Hall 217
Smith College
Northampton, MA  01063

Smith College official correspondence

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