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ATM-OBSERVERS-L  March 2011

ATM-OBSERVERS-L March 2011

Subject:

Re: Are there any green stars?

From:

"Howard L. Cohen" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Howard L. Cohen

Date:

Sat, 26 Mar 2011 23:42:51 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

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text/plain (621 lines)

This is my last installment about "red stars" started because Ivo 
initially wrote about "green stars."  (Really no such animal.)

Mike suggests Hind's Crimson Star (also known somes called the 
"Vampire Star"!) and formally known as R Leporis) as the naked eye 
"red star" that I have been referring to in past e-mails.  Almost 
right but not quite.  Read on for why.

Yep, R Lep is one of the reddest stars known.  Discovered by J.R. 
Hind (1845), this British astronomer described it "of the most 
intense crimson, resembling a blood-drop on the background of the sky."

In fact, the reddest stars known typically belong to a class of stars 
known as the Carbon Stars (spectral class "C") and R Lep is a member 
of this class.  It should still be visible in early evening skies 
before setting if you can see faint stars (with your telescope).

These stars get their red color from not just being cool but 
primarily because carbon containing molecules in their atmospheres 
block what little blue light the star emits leaving the star very red in color.

However, there is a catch.  Like most carbon stars, R Lep is variable 
star with a complex light variation of approx. 430 days sitting 
roughly 1,000 light years from us.  Its apparent magnitude varies 
from about mag. +5.5 to +12!

Hence, for part of its period R Lep is technically a naked eye star 
under dark skies but is below naked eye visibility most of the time.

I have read this star is also reddest near minimum brightness when it 
certainly is not naked eye.  I have also read R Lep was near minimum 
brightness last September so this spring it may reach maximum 
brightness.  Unfortunately, Lepus may get too low in evening skies to 
check this out but it may be worth a try.

So, Hind's Crimson star is not the star I was thinking about even 
though it is probably about as red as red can be.  However, this star 
is typically too faint to easily observe most of the time.

The best candidate for a "red star" that has naked eye visibility is 
a star of the same breed as R Lep, namely a carbon star.

SO HERE IS THE STAR I WAS THINKING ABOUT:

This star is 19 Piscium = TX Piscium, a 5th magnitude carbon star 
like R Lep and probably almost as red.  It is a variable star too but 
its apparent magnitude varies from only about +4.8 to +5.2 so it 
always has "naked eye visibility" as long as skies are not overly bright.

Once the Sun moves out of Pisces in the next month or so, it should 
be fun to find and observe this star though it will remain in the 
morning sky till much later this year.

Congratulations to Mike for getting close -- he finally identified 
the type of star that is typically very red -- a carbon 
star.  Unfortunately carbon stars are not common nor appear very 
bright due to their large distances from us even though they are 
truly luminous stars.

So, 19 Psc remains the best candidate if you want to see red!

And blame Ivo for starting this overly long discussion but kudos to 
him for having an inquiring mind!

Howard Cohen

At 05:55 PM 3/26/2011, Mike Toomey wrote:
>Hind's Crimson Star?
>
>
>On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Howard L. Cohen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Ivo,
> >
> > Mira ... an interesting choice ... but not the "reddest" naked 
> eye star that
> > I can think of.
> >
> > Yes, Mira, a long period variable, is now extremely difficult to spot.  If
> > the western horizon is very clear, one should find Mira (Omicron Ceti) very
> > low, about 6 degrees high, almost due west tonight and over the 
> next several
> > nights.  However, its apparent magnitude, I think, is now below naked eye
> > visibility.  So, like the star I am thinking about, Mira is not readily
> > visible at this time.
> >
> > Mira should be visible low in the east before dawn in July but will not be
> > naked eye till later in the year.
> >
> > Mira varies in brightness (from abt. mag. + 2 to +10 over a period of
> > roughly a year) as well as color.  When reddest Mira is probably quite
> > orangy though when low, like the Sun, its color should become somewhat
> > redder.
> >
> > However, the star is naked eye for only about 4 to 4-1/2 months (brighter
> > than mag. +6) out of its approximate one year 
> period.  Predictions show next
> > maximum falling in late September of this year becoming naked eye 
> perhaps in
> > early August.
> >
> > So, Mira is often not naked eye and, although brightest of the "red" long
> > period variables, is still not nearly as red as the star I am thinking
> > about.
> >
> > In fact, the star I have in mind is always above naked eye visibility in a
> > dark sky and would look, I think, quite red to most people even when high.
> >  However, although "naked eye," a telescope would really be needed to allow
> > the eye to see its distinct color since it is probably near or possibly
> > beyond the naked eye limit for someone observing from Gainesville suburbs.
> >  However, it should appear reasonably bright in even a small telescope.
> >
> > Although its distance is somewhat uncertain, Mira is, as Mike notes, about
> > 400 light years away, or about half the distance of the star I 
> still have in
> > mind.
> >
> > Howard Cohen
> >
> >
> > At 03:23 PM 3/26/2011, you wrote:
> >>
> >> When Bill Helms wrote Mu in Cepheus I thought he nailed it since
> >> Cepheus has 2 other red Supergiants according to wikipedia.
> >>
> >> I looked up Mira in wikipedia and if that's wrong I'll shine Howard's
> >> shoes.
> >>
> >> By the way. Mike is being modest about not knowing the night sky as
> >> much as some other of our members.
> >>
> >> I'll put my money on Mike against any of our 2011 paid up members as
> >> long as "go to telescopes" and other such gizmos are not used.
> >>
> >> Ivo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Last guess for me... Mira -- Omicron Ceti... even though wikipedia
> >>> says it's only 400 ly away.
> >>>
> >>> See everyone at the star party tonight.  Sure hope it clears!
> >>>
> >>> M
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Howard L. Cohen <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Ivo,
> >>>>
> >>>> Barnard's Star (V2500 Ophiuchi), as you say, is too faint (mag. +9.5 so
> >>>> not
> >>>> naked eye) to be the "red star" I am thinking about.  It is also now
> >>>> visible
> >>>> after about 2:00 a.m. EDT but the star I am thinking about is not.  And,
> >>>> its
> >>>> color is probably about the same as Betelgeuse -- probably more
> >>>> yellow/orange or orange to most eyes than really red.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Helms suggested Mu Cephei and Mike Toomey wrote that he liked this
> >>>> guess.  Mu Cep is a good candidate and likely one of the more "reddish"
> >>>> naked eye stars.  It is easily seen when near greatest magnitude but
> >>>> this
> >>>> huge, cool supergiant is a distant, irregular variable with periods
> >>>> typically from 2 to 2-1/2 years.  Magnitude variations are more than one
> >>>> magnitude, abt. +3.4 to +5.1.  Mu Cep is now visible in morning hours.
> >>>>  Mu
> >>>> Cep is certainly one of the "redder" stars.  Some might call this star
> >>>> "garnet colored."  Mu Cep is much redder than its cool temperature would
> >>>> imply due to absorption of the bluer colors by stellar and interstellar
> >>>> dust.
> >>>>
> >>>> However, I still know of a redder naked eye star, but it is now too
> >>>> close to
> >>>> the Sun in the sky to be easily seen.  Its red color makes it stand out
> >>>> from
> >>>> surrounding stars.  Though other stars can be found that are still
> >>>> redder, I
> >>>> think this "red star" is probably the reddest, naked eye star.  Like
> >>>> most
> >>>> stars of its type, its brightness varies by up to several tenths of a
> >>>> magnitude but it is still naked eye when dimmest.  It is a bright giant
> >>>> roughly 800 light year away.
> >>>>
> >>>> Howard Cohen
> >>>>
> >>>> At 08:54 AM 3/26/2011, Ivo Rabell wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Howard,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Barnard Star is my only other guess and that's wrong because it's a
> >>>>> red dwarf and you can't see it with naked eye.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maybe Mike Toomey, being the most knowledgeable stargazer in our
> >>>>> group, would know answer to "red star... which can be seen with naked
> >>>>> eye... early morning in about a month from now".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ivo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Ivo,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You are right -- you are wrong. The stars you mention are not truly
> >>>>>> red stars.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Although many refer to some stars as red dwarfs, giants or
> >>>>>> supergiants,
> >>>>>> this is an exaggeration -- they are not quite red.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, yes, these stars not really red but yellow/orange as you say.  And
> >>>>>> they are visible at this time of year.  The star I am thinking about
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> "red" and not readily visible now but is visible in Gainesville at
> >>>>>> other times of the year.  (It will become visible in early morning in
> >>>>>> about a month from now.)  It is also much fainter than first magnitude
> >>>>>> though should be visible in very dark skies.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gamma Crucis is "redder" than either Arcturus or Aldebaran but again
> >>>>>> not quite "red."  Therefore, Gamma Cru is incorrect. (Gamma Cru is
> >>>>>> "technically visible from Gainesville though its maximum elevation
> >>>>>> would be only about 3 degrees!)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Howard Cohen
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> At 06:20 PM 3/23/2011, Ivo Rabell wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Howard,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks for clarifications about "green stars".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My first thoughts would have been Arcturus or Aldeberan but both
> >>>>>>> stars
> >>>>>>> I can see tonight and they are probably yellow/orange.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My guess would be a star I've never seen, Gamma Crucis in Crux
> >>>>>>> (Southern Cross)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ivo
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Interesting discourse about "green stars" but readers should note
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> following clarifications:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I doubt these stars would look green to the eye even if bright
> >>>>>>>> enough
> >>>>>>>> for our amateur telescopes.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The telescope used to obtain the image of the ultra cool brown
> >>>>>>>> dwarf,
> >>>>>>>> WISEPC JO45853.90+643451.9, only detects radiation in the infrared.
> >>>>>>>> The specific wavelengths are 3.4, 4.6, 12 and 22 microns.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> (A micron is one millionth of a meter and no longer often used but
> >>>>>>>> still sometimes convenient in some applications.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Note: The human eye, in contrast to WISE, can see radiation from
> >>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> 0.4 to 0.7 microns, which we perceive as violet through red with
> >>>>>>>> green
> >>>>>>>> at roughly 0.5 to 0.6 microns.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In other words, the WISE telescope (Wide Field Infrared Explorer) is
> >>>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>> *infrared* space telescope (launched 14 Dec. 2009; decommissioned
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>> past Feb. 17, 2011).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since the human eye cannot see infrared, the four spectral bands
> >>>>>>>> (3.4,
> >>>>>>>> 4.6, 12 and 22 microns) have been color coded blue, cyan, green and
> >>>>>>>> red
> >>>>>>>> respectively by those who have processed the image.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I believe methane absorption in this star depresses the first two
> >>>>>>>> spectral bands (coded cyan and blue) and the star's light lacks
> >>>>>>>> radiation in the fourth spectral band (red).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Note: The star does emit some radiation in the red but this is weak,
> >>>>>>>> contrary to what Ivo wrote -- a common mistake.  In any case, this
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> irrelevant here since WISE is blind to red (has no detector in the
> >>>>>>>> red
> >>>>>>>> spectral region).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Therefore, WISE primarily "sees" radiation from this cool brown
> >>>>>>>> dwarf
> >>>>>>>> in the 12 micron spectral band that has been color coded green.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hence, this star "looks green" in WISE images.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The choice of green is arbitrary but probably a good choice since it
> >>>>>>>> helps make these ultra cool brown dwarfs stand out from other stars
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> the WISE images, which would not necessarily appear green to WISE.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And, yes, Ivo is probably right.  Further infrared surveys will
> >>>>>>>> probably detect many more of these "green stars" since they are
> >>>>>>>> probably very numerous.  Some astronomers, in fact, think some such
> >>>>>>>> stars may exist closer to us then the Alpha Centauri System.  Time
> >>>>>>>> will
> >>>>>>>> tell.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks, Ivo, for alerting readers about these extraordinarily cool
> >>>>>>>> stars.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now, who has seen a truly "red star."  (So called "red stars" as
> >>>>>>>> Betelgeuse or Antares are not really quite red, more orangy.)
> >>>>>>>>  Really
> >>>>>>>> red appearing stars are rare but such a breed does exist and at
> >>>>>>>> least
> >>>>>>>> one is naked eye.  What breed?  Which naked eye star?
> >>>>>>>>  (Unfortunately
> >>>>>>>> this is not the season to see it.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Howard Cohen
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> At 10:13 PM 3/22/2011, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Have you ever wonder if there are any green stars?  I have, so I
> >>>>>>>>> did a
> >>>>>>>>> little research.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I remembered seeing Hubble and NASA pictures of certain emission
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> absorption nebulae with swaths of green colors and some of them
> >>>>>>>>> with a
> >>>>>>>>> few small green stars.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I also looked at NASA's WISE survey picture of a green color
> >>>>>>>>> star(scanning in infrared). NASA discovered this green ultra-cool
> >>>>>>>>> brown dwarf called WISEPC JO45853.90+643451.9 in Camelopardalis or
> >>>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>> Giraffe. The brown dwarf is position right on the neck of the
> >>>>>>>>> Giraffe.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This brown dwarf has methane in atmosphere, which absorbs blue
> >>>>>>>>> light
> >>>>>>>>> and the dwarf is so faint that it does not give red light. Thus
> >>>>>>>>> color
> >>>>>>>>> green.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This week I decided to do some reading on subject. I found that
> >>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>> Brown dwarfs (some astronomers think of them as failed stars) can
> >>>>>>>>> appear green.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Brown dwarfs are cool and dim and keep contracting until a form of
> >>>>>>>>> pressure takes over-electron degeneracy pressure and these are
> >>>>>>>>> called
> >>>>>>>>> T dwarfs. Other brown dwarfs called L dwarfs fuse deuterium for
> >>>>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>>>> short periods of time.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The spectrum of some of these T dwarfs shows absorption bands of
> >>>>>>>>> methane. Similar to spectra of Jupiter. NASA has detected tiny
> >>>>>>>>> crystals circling around 5 brown dwarfs. The crystals are thought
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> be olivine (color green) thought to help seed formation of planets.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The presence of methane and green olivine crystal means that a
> >>>>>>>>> dwarf
> >>>>>>>>> star can appear to be green.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The problem is, are these real stars or just large planets. Most T
> >>>>>>>>> dwarfs size is less than 13 Jupiter masses. Some are free-floating
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> formed on their own through gravitational contraction out of a
> >>>>>>>>> cloud
> >>>>>>>>> of gas-like normal stars.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Some astronomers classify L dwarfs as stars and T dwarfs as
> >>>>>>>>> planets.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Gibor Basri UC at Berkeley proposed we call T dwarfs planemos
> >>>>>>>>> (planetary mass objects) if they are at least massive enough to be
> >>>>>>>>> spherical but not massive enough to be deuterium-fusing brown
> >>>>>>>>> dwarfs.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> How do we know that some T dwarfs (electron degeneracy pressure)
> >>>>>>>>> were
> >>>>>>>>> not L dwarfs (fused deuterium) at one time?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It is my belief that with advance technology we will start seeing
> >>>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>>> pictures of these green color dwarf stars.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I wouldn't jump for joy if you think (as an amateur astronomers)
> >>>>>>>>> you'll ever see a green star through your telescope.  That
> >>>>>>>>> technology
> >>>>>>>>> is way above our pay scale.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ivo Rabell
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > THIS MESSAGE IS FROM THE AMATEUR TELESCOPE MAKERS & OBSERVERS
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS MESSAGE IS FROM THE AMATEUR TELESCOPE MAKERS & OBSERVERS
OF THE ALACHUA ASTRONOMY CLUB, INC. MAILING LIST
AAC Home Page:  http://www.floridastars.org
ATM-OBSERVERS-L Meetings Page: http://www.floridastars.org/atm/
ATM-OBSERVERS-L Archives: http://www.lists.ufl.edu/archives/atm-observers-l.html
ATM-OBSERVERS-L Subscription Info: http://www.floridastars.org/listserv/atml.html

POSTING MESSAGES TO THE ENTIRE ATM-OBSERVERS-L LIST:

1. Send your message to [log in to unmask]
2. Message will be distributed subject to approval by the sender
3. Please keep messages pertinent to the purpose of this list

TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST:
1. Send e-mail to [log in to unmask]
2. In body of e-mail put UNSUBSCRIBE ATM-OBSERVERS-L
   (You must be logged on under same userid as when you originally subscribed.)

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