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PSYART  March 2011, Week 3

PSYART March 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Symbolism and id-interpretation

From:

"Julie A. Kostrey" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:53:00 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (179 lines)

Dear Norm,  are your questions rhetorical? I am not sure what you found patronizing - Winnicott's self-disclosure or my own definition of analytic process/symbol interpretation (my sense is both are vulnerable positions to share).   If you have a different opinion/perspective/definition than mine, I'd appreciate your sharing it - I find respectful discussion helpful.  Sincerely, Julie Kostrey 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Norm Rosenblood <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:52:33 
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Symbolism and id-interpretation



 Who said interpretation is about the analyst?

Who looks up symbols in a book?

The idea of "embracing" is somewhat puzzling. Do you mean owning and
expressing a willingness to analyse?

I have a feeling of being somewhat fudged and made to feel I
am not "feeling" enough empathy for the patient. Patronized is the word.


Norm Rosenblood

















Norman Rosenblood, Ph.D., Training and Supervising Psychoanalyst
Co-director, Hamilton Centre for Psychoanalysis
8 Mayfair Place
Hamilton, Ontario
L8S 4G1

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Thanks for your sharing your expertise, Norm. I'll look into the helpful references you recommend. To clarify, I think dream work can be very useful. My experience, however, is that interpretation is much more complicated than looking up the patient's dream image in a psychoanalytic dictionary and making a 1:1 conclusion.  To me, dream work is akin to language translation work or understanding a poem - if you are reductive or literal in your interpretation, you stand a good chance of missing the point. It is the responsibility of the analyst to consider context and personal experience of the patient - even noting things like body states or temperature (says Federn) can be useful.  As for the Winnicott quote - I found it very relevant to the task of interpreting that we undertake with our patients.  To me, the analytic process is not so much about the analyst as it is about the patient.  After all, the point of dream work is for the patient to embrace and understand the unresolved conflict, memory, or other deficiency and incorporate sanctioned insight of the dream into his or her own life.  Sincerely, Julie Kostrey
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norm Rosenblood <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:20:10
> To: Julie A. Kostrey<[log in to unmask]>
> Cc: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Symbolism and id-interpretation
>
>
>
>   "Negative therapeutic reaction" is a separate problem from a patient not
> accepting an interpretation. Take a look at a couple of psychoanalytic
> dictionaries . Joseph Sandler in the PATIENT AND THE ANALYST has a fine
> survey of the literature.  Freud talks about it in THE EGO AND THE ID.
>
> What is the Winnicottian quote supposed to mean? Never make an
> interpretation? What is an acceptable interpretation to him?
> Did he just let his patients squiggle on? Was he a blank mirror? I doubt
> it.
>
> I detect some sort of inchoate animus toward dream interpretation. Dreams
> are the "royal road to the unconscious". They require interpretation.
>
> You might also consult Moore amd Fine,PSYCHOANALYTIC TERMS AND
> CONCEPTS--some excellent bibliography on dreams and their interpretations.
>
> Norm Rosenblood
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Norman Rosenblood, Ph.D., Training and Supervising Psychoanalyst
> Co-director, Hamilton Centre for Psychoanalysis
> 8 Mayfair Place
> Hamilton, Ontario
> L8S 4G1
>
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2011, Julie A. Kostrey wrote:
>
> > I was grateful for both the sober and robust posts today - appreciated the reset.  Here's my two cents: symbols are clearly important.  However context and individual experience are equally vital - particularly when conducting dream work. My understanding is that Freud also believed in a "negative therapeutic reaction" - as brilliant as we may think our analyses may be, if the interpretation does not resonate with the patient intellectually or affectively, it is of little or no benefit to the patient to stubbornly insist on our version of the dream (it is in fact harmful). The analysand's dream can but does not always conform to a predetermined idea, lest the process becomes something reductive (not the fascinating, thought-provoking science/art it is). In "Use of an Object," Winnicott self-discloses about his practice and shortcomings as a clinician (which I find refreshing, highly beneficial and instructive): "It appalls me to think how much deep change I have prevented !
>  or!
> >   delayed in patients in a certain classification category by my personal need to interpret. If only we can wait, the patient arrives at understanding creatively and with immense joy, and I now enjoy this joy more than I used to enjoy the sense of having been clever." Sincerely, Julie Kostrey.  PS: I find it curious that we are now repackaging the notion of collective unconscious symbols as a Freudian concept - did I misunderstand?
> > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:         Norm Rosenblood <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sender:       Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date:         Tue, 15 Mar 2011 07:41:10
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Reply-To:     Discussion Group for Psychology and the Arts
> >               <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Symbolism and id-interpretation
> >
> >   Freud points out in the INTRODUCTORY LECTURES that sometimes the analyst
> > cannot get the dreamer's associations; so. he falls back on universal
> > symbolism as a last resort.
> >
> >
> > One of the mainstays of dream interpretation is to analyse symbolism.
> > Quite often it is hard work requiring a subtle awareness of the
> > connotations of the dreamer's associations.
> >
> > To discard the analysis of symbolism is comparable to a chest doctor
> > discarding his stethoscope.
> >
> > Freud, Abraham and Rycroft have written valuable papers on symbolism.
> >
> > It is important to avoid wild phallic symbol hunting. It has not helped or
> > enhanced the reputation of analysis.
> >
> > Norm Rosenblood
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Norman Rosenblood, Ph.D., Training and Supervising Psychoanalyst
> > Co-director, Hamilton Centre for Psychoanalysis
> > 8 Mayfair Place
> > Hamilton, Ontario
> > L8S 4G1
> >
> > On Mon, 14 Mar 2011, Claire Hershman wrote:
> >
> > > Thank heaven at last some grounded sense thanks Norman. A symbolic interpretation only makes sense if it moves the receiver of the symbol into the unknown. Other wise it's a sign.
> > > My original question about  phallic narcissism got very very lost.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > > Claire odeon Hershman
> > >
> > >
> > > On 14 Mar 2011, at 01:08, Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear PSYARTers,
> > > >
> > > > The idea that Stonehenge represents a vagina, dentata or indentata, strikes me as simply crude and probably wacky.  I've been reading various posts in which people are interpreting symbols in the manner of Freud in 1910.  (He later said he had overdone the symbolism business.)  This kind of interpretation Erikson called "id-interpretation."  Where is the ego in all this stuff about automatic symbolizations?
> > > >
> > > > And whose fantasies and symbolic meanings are these?  To whom is Stonehenge symbolizing?  Isn't the core of psychoanalysis eliciting from the patient what this or that symbol or anything else means to the patient?  Has anybody talked to the people to whom these symbolic meanings are attributed?
> > > >
> > > > I plead guilty to using the idea of universal symbolism in my early writings.  It is easy and it is appealing.  But it has seemed to me since the early '70s easily overworked and seriously in doubt for the reasons given above: no account of ego; no account of the person symbolizing.
> > > >
> > > >                       --With warm regards,
> > > >
> > > >                                    Norm
> > > > Norman Holland
> > > >  [log in to unmask]
> > >
> >
>

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April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
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March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 1
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December 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 4
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April 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
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November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
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September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 1
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June 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
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July 1997, Week 3
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June 1997, Week 4

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