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PSYART  January 1999, Week 5

PSYART January 1999, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Replies to Rosenblood and Lambert

From:

Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Institute for Psychological Study of the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:33:41 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

From:
       Norman Rosenblood <[log in to unmask]>

15:16
------------------

 To Don Carvewth citing Parsons refuting the reductionistic Freudians
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 I am not convinced that people, in general, can  want to "monopolize a
person's love and attention" without any hint of wanting some additional
pleasure, perhaps even a "murmur of the heart" will ensue.

As to "wise women" sharing knowledge while the boys have a go at the
"old
man", is implicitly sexist: women have oedipal desires too. Doesn't
literature depict women trying to do in the "old lady" and the daughter
as
well? Perhaps we could start with Little Miss Muffet sitting on her
"tuffet?" and who comes along? And we all remember what Dorothy did to
the
wicked witch of the West...and how about Gretel...and Cinderella's
sisters? Brrr

Ave reductum libidinus atque vale Walt Disney.

Norm Rosenblood

----------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Norman Holland wrote:

> From:
>        "Donald L. Carveth" <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Fri 19:09
> >
> > From:
> >        Norman Rosenblood <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Thu 23:54
> > ------------------
> >                           Re Freud and the Oedipus Complex
> >                           --------------------------------
> >  Freud was also relying on his self- analysis for evidence of death
> > wishes
> > towards his father. He found strong evidence in his own dreams as
> > well as in literature. The evidence also continued to emerge from his
> > experience with patients. Laplanche and Pontalis have an excellent
> > description of the evolution of the concept in Freud's thinking.
> >
> > Quite frequently overlooked is the discovery of the negative oedipus
> > complex: the desire for sexual union with the parent of the same sex and
> > the death of the other. If memory serves me, I believe Malinowski has a
> > book on the old chestnut of whether or not the oedipus is universal.
> >
> > Norm Rosenblood
>
> Norm (R),
>
> Anne Parsons wrote an excellent paper on the Jones-Malinowski debate,
> "Is
> the Oedipus Complex Universal?"  It is contained in a collection of her
> essays titled "Magic, Belief and Anomie."  Neo-Marxists (like Reich,
> Fromm
> and others) had used Malinowski's Trobriand data (where the boy's
> hostility
> is directed toward his maternal uncle who, in that matrilineal and
> matrilocal culture, has authority over him, rather than toward his
> father
> whose position in his life is more that of an uncle in our culture) to
> argue that the boy's oedipal hostility is not about sex but about power
> and
> domination. Parsons reanalyzed the data and found strong themes, myths,
> jokes, taboos, etc, regarding brother sister incest among the
> Trobrianders.
> She argued that although uncle does not sleep with mother, he is a more
> emotionally salient figure to her than her husband (he resides in his
> own
> village merely visiting from time to time; divorce is easily initiated
> by
> the woman, etc.). The boy's oedipal hostility is directed to the man who
> is
> most important in his mother's life: his uncle.  The boy is hostile to
> his
> uncle not only because of issues of authority, power and domination, but
> also because of jealousy and rivalry.  The boy wishes to be the most
> important person in mother's life and his rival for this position is not
> the man who has sex with her and then returns to his own village where
> he
> is a VIP, i.e., an uncle; it is his uncle who doesn't sleep with her.
> So
> the Oedipus is not about who has sex with whom, but about who is most
> important to whom.  Against the neo-Marxists she concludes the Oedipus
> is
> irreducible to authority and power issues. Against reductionist
> Freudians,
> she argues the Oedipus is not fundamentally about sex, but about the
> wish
> to monopolize the object's love and attention.  This has always made
> sense
> to me.  "Sophisticated" lovers are sometimes unworried by mere sexual
> infidelities, provided they are secure in the knowledge that when push
> comes to shove their "ownership" is secure.
>
> > From:
> >        Anne Lambert <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Thu 20:52
> > -------------------
> > Scientific knowledge and discovery have been described as the son's
> > demonstrating his knowledge to the "old man." I think this is a
> > masculine (and sexist) view. Women share--not demonstrate--knowledge
> > with each other--a community of wise women.
> >         Thanks--Anne Lambert
>
> Anne, you've taken that remark rather out of context.  I was not
> offering a
> generalization about the nature of scientific knowledge, merely claiming
> that when the young man's rivalry with the old man is played out in a
> scientific field, the old man will sometimes give way provided the young
> man plays by the rules and can demonstrate the superiority of his views
> or
> findings.  This is not a theory of science, merely a comment on one of
> the
> vicissitudes of oedipal struggle between males.
>
> Best,
>
> Don
> --
> Donald L. Carveth, Ph.D.
> [log in to unmask]
> http://www.website2u.com/Carveth/Home.htm
>
>

 ===========================================================================

Norman Rosenblood, Ph.D., Training and Supervising Analyst
c/o Chester New Hall, Room 415
McMaster University
1200 Main Street West                   Telephone (905) 525-9140, Ext.
24495
Hamilton, Ontario, L8S 4L9
Canada
 ============================================================================

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