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PSYART  September 1999, Week 3

PSYART September 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Guru/adherent relationship

From:

Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Institute for Psychological Study of the Arts <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:54:42 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (214 lines)

From:
        "Donald S. Palladino, Jr." <[log in to unmask]>

7:19 AM


Rebecca, In addition to the already excellent resources on guru/devotee
references mentioned thus far, permit me to add a few more, however
idiosyncratic (but hopefully useful) they may be:

>From a self psychological perspective, Kohut's essay  "On Leadership"(in
Search for the Self, vol. 3; and Self psychology and the Humanities) is
an
excellent survey on both the virtues, pitfalls, as well as the horrific
destructiveness (as in the case of Hitler) of leaders who form a
"narcissistic bonds" and a "grandiose group self" with their adherents.
The
therapeutic importance and virtue of submitting to such a relationship
was
studied by a research colleague of mine, C. Anthony Martignetti, who has
written "A Comparative Study of Idealization, Mirroring, and Perceptions
of
Parental Authority in the Devotees of a Guru." If this title interests
you,
he can contacted him at [log in to unmask]

George Feuerstein newer book was already mentioned. One of his older
books,
"Holy Madness: The Shock Tactics and Radical Teachings of Crazy-Wise
Adepts,
Holy Fools, and Rascal Gurus" gives some wonderful examples of the guru
in
action, much like your idea of him being "onstage." George Feuerstein is
interesting because he has had rather outrageous personal experiences
with
his own Western born adept, "Love Ananda" (though I believe, he has a
new
name now--and has actually changed his name well over 20 times, each
time he
has had a new level of awakening), which is pseudonymously presented to
the
reader.

Also, you mentioned the magazine, "What is Enlightenment." An
interesting
choice. This magazine was founded by another Western born adept, located
in
my neck of the woods (Massachusetts), Andrew Cohen. I found that he had
his
own peculiar method of being "onstage." As a teaching tool, as well as
to
expedite the conversion process, his devotees organize monthly sessions
where Andrew's teachings are transmitted via video to mostly in awe
audiences. As an outsider to one of these events (I was invited by my
yoga
teacher, for whom Andrew is her spiritual guide), I was in awe observing
the
devotees in awe. After two and a half hours of this teaching, I felt I
could
not get to my poetry collection quick enough.  I wondered whether my
western
mind could not grasp these oriental concepts. I guess I am intrigued
(and
converted) by poetry,inclined toward unusual linguistic tropes, and
anything
that is less than poetic (at least when their aim is conversion, or
metanoia) just makes me sleepy, cranky, or just plain agitated. But
perhaps
those symptoms were signs that I was just beginning my awakening
process.
Anyway, Kohut's essay (as well as the rest of his corpus) made me
reflect,
at least self psychologically, on my own particular reaction (or lack)
and
the other adherents complete awe.  Why would I rather be at home reading
poetry? It is doubtless that Andrew was a leader for others; but why
could
he never be a leader for me.  It left me with some interesting
questions.
How could those words uttered by this guru have such an impact on others
and
not really much of an impact on me. Could it be that his words were, as
Austin says, "speech-acts" or "performatives." People were changing
their
lives based on these words. But for me, those same words just seemed
vapid;
the held no force; the did not make me feel--as Ezra Pound says poetry
should make one feel--"most intensely alive." Was I missing something?
Anyway, I'm off the track here. But your question has provoked some of
these
questions. I need to reflect on this some more. I have an answer when I
see
this from the lens of Self Psychology. But I think I am seeking a poetic
answer. Perhaps, seeing  texts of a particular guru from a literary or
poetic standpoint might be the key. This seems like a fruitful and
fascinating road.

Some very subjective assertions, buttressed by my mentors: All good
students
must sooner of later supplant their teachers. All great gurus must
possess a
great (grandiose?) sense of style which informs their own performance
and is
then  transferred to the devotees from that privileged "onstage"
position.
Whitman, in acts of blind charity, has said that he has given his
"style" to
everyone. Yet he reminds us that he who understands this style the most,
learns under it to "destroy the teacher." Perhaps we learn best in a
temporary position of subjugation, or "under"-standing. Keats believed
that
there must be gods thrown down. Wallace Stevens  has said that it is one
our
greatest joys to see our gods dispelled in mid air. This may be related,
psychologically, to the client who longs for the therapist to
"under-stand."
But is not necessary to treat our gods (or gurus) so harshly or
irreverently
as Whitman, Keats, and Stevens suggests in order to achieve that
hard-won
goal of being understood?  Must we also have gurus (and gods) stay with
us,
become part of us? If so, what is the method for doing this? Is Kohut's
concept of "transmuting internalization" most helpful to those who are
reading their gurus, whether in human or textual form? Or perhaps we
must be
more "agonistic" and use Harold Bloom's six stage revisionary ratio
method
to the road to understanding. I must confess to having my own guru, whom
I
love to the depths of my heart: Walt Whitman. But perhaps I can love him
so
much and still consider him my own guru because he shows me both
polarities
of his being: his outrageous grandiosity ("I know perfectly well my own
egotism, / Know my omnivorous lines and must not write any less, / And
would
fetch you whomever you are flush with myself") as well as his most human
frailties ("Here the frailest leaves of me and yet my longest lasting,
Here
I shade and hide my thoughts, I myself do not expose them, And yet they
expose me more than all my other poems.") In short, I guess I'm
attracted to
the literature or poetry of "living human documents" who continually
asks me
to submit to such a relationship, but who do not ask me to "leave my
body-mind on a platter" at the door.

Finally, this poem might be of interest to the topic as well.

ARE YOU THE NEW PERSON DRAWN TOWARD ME?
Are you the new person drawn toward me?
To begin with take warning, I am surely far different from what you
suppose;
Do you suppose you will find in me your ideal?
Do you think it is so easy to have me become your lover?
Do you think the friendship of me would be unalloy'd satisfaction?
Do you think I am trusty and faithful?
Do you see no further than this facade, this smooth and tolerant
manner of me?
Do you suppose yourself advancing on real ground toward a real
heroic man?
Have you no thought O dreamer that it may be all maya, illusion?  Walt
Whitman


Sincerely,
Donald S. Palladino, Jr.
[log in to unmask]


----- Original Message -----
From: Norman Holland <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 3:37 PM
Subject: Guru/adherent relationship


> From:
>         "Rebecca W. Meredith" <[log in to unmask]>
>
> Tue 5:34 PM
>
> PsyArters,
>
> I am looking for literature on the nature of any number of relationships
> where one party serves as the idealized holder of knowledge and/or power
> and the other(s) remain in a state of voluntary subjugation.  In this
> case
> I'm thinking fairly specifically of cases where the idealized party is
> literally onstage as a guru (any kind, Anthony Robbins, Jesus,
> whomever),
> idealogical leader, even, in a relationship that I find fascinating, a
> magician or illusionist (the connection to performance of miracles or an
> elevated ability to manipulate reality is the connecting factor).  The
> adherent often purports to be seeking a kind of enlightenment, when in
> fact
> everyone involved has often colluded in keeping the status quo.  In fact
> the "guru" is given control of reality, and to ascend would be to
> destroy
> the illusion and the gratification of what seems to be not only a
> regressed
> but a masochistic need. There have certainly been enough situations
> where
> people have given up everything to maintain this childlike state.
> Clearly
> there are parallels to what sometimes comes up in an analytic situation,
> but in this case the masochistic, and possibly sadistic needs on the
> enlightened one's part, are being met rather than examined.
>
> There must be articles available.  Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Rebecca Meredith

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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 1
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July 1998, Week 3
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 1
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October 1997, Week 5
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October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
August 1997, Week 4
August 1997, Week 3
August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
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July 1997, Week 3
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June 1997, Week 4

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