Hi Liz,

This is the second time I've posted on the listserv.  The first was my
previous message on this subject.  It may be the last on this subject.  With
all respect to CRMs and non-CRMs I will respond to your questions.

Records Managers manage.  Management skills are developed with experience
and can't really be obtained in a classroom environment, although management
theories and principals can speed up the development of these skills.  As
everyone has undoubtedly come across in their career, there are individuals
in management positions because of their certifications (I am not referring
to CRMs) and really don't understand what they have learned, or cannot put
theory into practice.  This takes a skill set that must be learned through
"hard knocks".

I do not oppose the idea of CRM.  As I stated in my earlier post, it is the
thing to go for if you are just entering the Records and Information
Management Field.  Most that have obtained their CRM designations have
indicated that they learned much from the experience.  This is wonderful and
I support their decision for the path they have taken.  This was their
individual career development decision.  It makes our community stronger,
and places us in a more professional standing.

However your question concerning me obtaining certification as a MCSE, yes.
If I was starting out in this field, it is the fastest way to obtain the
knowledge needed to work in an MS software environment.  BUT, I don't know
if Bill Gates has his MCSE or not, If I was making a decision to hire and it
was between someone just out of certification with his/her MCSE, and him, I
would hire the experienced Gates without certification hands down.

What I am trying to say is that perhaps we are asking the Bill Gates (all
RMs without certification) to obtain something that they really don't need
at this point in their careers, for the purposed of having three letters
beside your name.  Don't know if Bill Gates would agree to that either.

My point is that it is the individual's decision, and CRMs should respect
non-CRMs decisions to spend their time training in new areas, rather that
spending time confirming for others what they already know (and is indicated
in their resumes).

My views are my views and not necessarily those of my employer.

Best Regards,

Bob Soutar
Manager, Records/Information Holdings
Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation
mailto:[log in to unmask]

-----Original Message-----
From: Liz Castro [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 9:43 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: CRM debate

Okay Bob,
based on your e-mail, my question to you is, would you not then pursue
certification in the IT field.  For example if your involved in imaging
would you not seek CDIA certification?

If you're involved with the microsoft environment, would you not seek the
MSCE certification and so on?

Or would you say, well I have 27 years experience, that should speak for

I'm just playing devils advocate at this point, and am curious as to your


Elizabeth Castro,CRM, MIT, MBA
Electronic Records Manager,
Records Administration, I.S.
[log in to unmask]
Contact# 631-738-4615
Fax # 631-738-4740
Cell # 516- 381-2654

>>> [log in to unmask] 05/29/00 09:50AM >>>
The CRM debate... I must first state that I am not a CRM, nor have I
seriously looked into becoming one.  I have been following the "Great
Debate" over the past week on this listserv.  I've been in the profession
for 27 years now, beginning as a mail clerk and moving up through the ranks
to my second position as a RM.  I have served in the capacity of a RM for
the past 9 years.  I would easily qualify to be eligible for the CRM study
series and exam.  I have not chosen to do so.

I do not feel that I need a designation for the proven experience I have.
One has little time in life, so identification of training content is vital
to ensure that they become the best that they can be.  Spending as much as
five years of valuable time, obtaining three letters to place beside my
name, confirming my experience, seems to be a backwards approach in my view.
For those that are new to the RM profession, a CRM designation is definitely
the way to go, but I don't really know if it is accessible to that
experience set.

RM must play a major role in the area of electronic document management to
ensure that electronic records are properly managed as part of the overall
corporate records management program.  From my experience, many of the rules
for managing paper records change in an electronic environment.  Much of my
time today (and for the past five years) is spent in this area with my IT
colleagues so I must spend my training time in the IT and EDMS field.  This
is "were it is happening" and from the ICRM outline for CRM certification,
it is missing.

Individuals make training need decisions, whether it be to spend time
obtaining a CRM designation, or pursuing other types of training.  The
individual makes the decision and should be commended for the initiative
that they take in advancing the RM profession in their professional

For those that have obtained their CRM designation, CONGRADULATIONS!  For
those that have decided to pursue training in areas other than that of the
CRM designation, CONGRADULATIONS on advancing our profession!

My views are my views and not necessarily those of my employer.

Bob Soutar
Manager, Records/Information Holdings
Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation
mailto:[log in to unmask]