Mr. Harry Paget,
Yes You!  You would incite the most peaceful individual to open a can of  whoopass on you (Yes that would include Mother Theresa, God rest her soul), because you put such a negative spin on anything that is positive.  Believe it or not CRM or any certification is positive!!!

We have already stated it is a matter of preference relative to acquiring the certification, that eventually all industries will require certification, and I believe in your case it is just a matter of insecurity on what you're about and the level of knowledge you have.

In my original post plumber versus helper, I think this was a rather quick and flippant remark.  And as some of you list servers can attest to, I have been very helpful in providing information, guidance and assistance when all needed it not just CRMS.

And that is the point.  Offering help and encouragement to those who need it.  I also sent my CRM study book to someone on the Listserv, who never even thanked me.   I will continue to help and assist those who request my help, if I can.

The views expressed are my own and do not reflect the views of my company.
Great debate!!

Elizabeth Castro,CRM, MIT, MBA
Electronic Records Manager,
Records Administration, I.S.
[log in to unmask]
Contact# 631-738-4615
Fax # 631-738-4740
Cell # 516- 381-2654

>>> [log in to unmask] 05/29/00 11:24PM >>>
Well, big surprise.  I said I wouldn't be dragged into this, but here I am
after all.

I am compelled to conclude that we, the dinosaurs - and lazy, ignorant and
wrong-thinking ones at that - who comprise the 95% (at least) of records
professionals without the CRM certification - had best resign ourselves to a
lifetime of menial and manual labor, as the warm embrace of the business
world apparently is only wide and welcoming enough to clasp the genuinely
certified to its legendary nurturing bosom.   The rest of us will have to be
suckled by some sort of confused transvestite amphibian with dreams of

We are evidently in good enough company, if you count all of the records
people in Australia and Europe and Asia and South America and Africa, and no
small number in this country, so we shan't suffer alone.   And think of all
the money ARMA can save if instead of feeding us in Las Vegas, they more
appropriately slop us.   Of course, there's the matter of hiring the
translators to dumb down all the presentations; sort of like the persons who
do the signing at gatherings of politicians, so we'll know how much they
really, really, REALLY care about the hearing impaired - or is that "the
hearing challenged"? - but instead of using the finger signs to translate,
oh, I don't know, something pithy like "if you don't manage your records,
they'll by God manage YOU!", these dumbers-down - dumb-downers? - can just
scratch themselves and belch and hold up pictures of boxes, and serfs
wearing rags, and a sign that says "this is U and U M a loser".

Point by point: I agree; ARMA and the ICRM should make it their principal
goal for the coming year to enlighten all Human Resources clerks as to why
they should learn more about the CRM certification, so that in the future
they can be sure and only hire the best people available.  Which would be
the CRMs; duh.

Shanauzelda suggests that experience and innovative  ideas would at least be
a trade-off against the CRM certification, but is assured by the Good &
Noble Kurilecz that the game is not played that way.  No, once again we are
informed that the CRM is a great "narrower of fields", sort of an "unleveler
of the playing field".   As befitting someone with my admittedly defective
personality, my own approach is earthier and cruddier.   What is so sweet as
the prospect of an employer hiring a certified witless buffoon when that
same employer could have had decades of real-time RM experience for the
asking?  To Shanauzelda's remark I append, "* but if experience and
innovative ideas aren't good enough when sized up against a certification of
questionable practical value, then to Hades with the employer; who wants to
work for a pinhead like that, anyway?"   Sour grapes are the sweetest,

Doug Allen avers that the world is driven by credentials and certifications.
   I quite agree.  It has certainly been MY experience that money doesn't
enter into it at all.   I don't know of a single organization that wouldn't
with absolute DELIGHT insist on paying $20,000 more to a CRM simply by
virtue of the certification, than on hiring some moron with only twenty
years of mere RM experience and pay them the going rate.  After all, the CRM
designation alone could easily translate into fifty times that much in
savings for that organization since, as we all know, or should, anyway,
these people are only a hop, skip, and a jump away from self-liberation from
what the G&N Kurilecz was referring to two weeks ago as "the back room"; in
a relatively short matter of time, the CRM will be the CEO.  Happens all the
time; or should.  Certifications do indeed separate.  So do body parts, as
Dick King pointed out.

As for extending certification to the ancillary components of RM, hell yes.
CIM - Certified Imaging  Manager; CE-MM - Certified E-Mail Manager; CFM
Certified Forms Manager; CBM - Certified Box Manager; CMOKM - Certified
Manager of Knuckleheads Manager; CMBHHHUHAM - Certified My Boss Has His Head
Up His Ass Manager; the list goes one and on.

But I do not pretend to understand THIS remark:

"True not all certifications truly provide evidence of competency".

How can that be?  I'm shocked; SHOCKED, I tell you.  Is what is being
implied here is that a Records Management professional WITHOUT the
certification might by some miracle be every bit as competent as one with
it?  Did I mention that I was shocked?

Harry F. Paget

I knew that things were too quiet for too long on this list. And it has been
quite a while since the list has had its usual 'CRM or non-CRM' donnybrook.
enjoy jumping in a day late and a dollar short on these type of discussions
because I can , hopefully, provide some sort of reasoned response. So let me
begin by responding to some individual items.

Harry (The Emperor has no clothes) Paget wrote:
<...suspect that the overwhelming majority of Human Resources professionals
who <are tasked with hiring.. do not have the slightest idea what the
initials "CRM" stand <for,.. Having seen several ads (requiring or
preferring the designation) I agree
that they don't know what is required to achieve the designation. How can
this be resolved? One way would be for either ARMA or the ICRM to contact
offending company and to inform them of the errors of their ways.

Shanauzelda Montgomery wrote:
<I'm sure that the ad you saw that stated "CRM" is required would be more
than <happy to interview a non CRM  with years experience and new innovative
ideas to <bring to the table.  Sorry, Shanauzelda, but the game isn't played
that way. *One advertiser stated to me that they knew what was required to
obtain the designation and that they used the requirement to narrow the
field.  (see also Bill Roach's comment)

Doug Allen wrote:
<This is a world driven by credentials and by certifications.
BINGO. * I could go on but t appears that every profession these days now
have some sort of certification available. Sorry but certifications
separate. Just as do licenses.  One day your manager will come to you and
say "Why aren't you a CRM?" What  will be your answer? Yes that can happen.

Doug Allen wrote:
<...see us extend certification to all of the content management areas
(imaging, <workflow and electronic document management technologies)
Definitely! I believe that the ICRM constantly updates the exams.

Yes the decision to go after the designation is a personal one. If you are
happy with your current position and do not plan to move on then the
decision not to pursue it is probably correct, BUT in my 20 year career I
have found that in order to move up I must move around (change jobs) and
that the CRM designation has greatly aided that effort. True not all
certifications truly provide evidence of competency.  It also appears from
various statements that there is a lot of misinformation floating around
about the designation and
its requirements. The ICRM must rectify this problem and I will gladly

Oh well this debate/discussion will come up again. I am proud that I have

And remember it is

Talk the walk and walk the talk.

Peter Kurilecz
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