***** To join INSNA, visit http://www.sfu.ca/~insna/ ***** Steve & Tad: I'd like to nominate Tad to provide an accurate and current translation for us so we can correct the back cover. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Maybe after a first draft is completed he could post it to the listserve and people can comment. Thanks. - Tom Steve Borgatti wrote: > ***** To join INSNA, visit http://www.sfu.ca/~insna/ ***** > > I was the one who first put the translations on the back of Connections. I > used native speakers for all of them. Incidentally, I removed the Chinese > one at some point because native speakers disagreed strongly on the correct > translation (I think the problem was Hong Kong vs mainland China). > > When I compare a 1998 volume of Connections with the most recent one, I see > a few changes. Some languages have been added -- Bill can tell us whether > these were done by native speakers (I should say writers ...). > > Also, I can see that some typos have crept in. Two of the errors that Tad > notes in the Polish line are not present in the original. Both errors in the > French bit are new, as are all errors in the Spanish. It would be > interesting if the errors were added a little at a time, like mutations. > > I think it is good to fix the errors (even if it destroys a natural > experiment), but I hope no one takes them too seriously. > > Steve. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tadeusz Sozanski" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:49 AM > Subject: how to translate INSNA to other languages > > > >>***** To join INSNA, visit http://www.sfu.ca/~insna/ ***** >> >>Dear Editors of Connections >>Dear Socnetters >> >>I've just received by airmail a copy of Connections' volume 25, >>Issue 1, the first issue sent to me as to the member of INSNA >>since July 2002. The back cover page shows how the Editors of the >>journal imagine the translations of INSNA into several European >>languages. It is a good idea to let the world know in such a way >>that INSNA is an international organization, even if only the minority >>of its members speak languages other than the official one. >> >>I know to a greater or smaller degree some of the languages >>represented in the list. Hence I cannot view this stuff in the same >>way as I would look at Chinese writing or all Hebrew alphabet >>except alef known to me as a mathematician. That is why I can't >>help complaining about too many errors that I traced in few >>lines, not only the one on top of the list. >> >>Let me begin from correcting this first item which is in my >>mother language. The translation of INSNA into Polish is OK, but the >>effect has been spoilt by three mistakes made by the person who >>retyped the text with the use of WordPerfect: (1) One syllable >>(do) was omitted in the first word which should read >>Mi#1,113#dzynarodowa (#1,113# means character #113 in WordPerfect >>Character Map #1); (2) two letters were transposed in the fourth >>word: it should be "Sieci", not "Seici"; (3) The last word >>"Spolecznych" should have #1,153# instead of "l". >> >>Let me show in turn two errors in the French translation of >>INSNA: (1) "pour" was mistyped as "piur"; (2) mute "x" is missing >>at the end of R#41#seau in its second appearance where the noun >>should be in plural. The latter error might also happen to a >>native user of French. As regards the first error, I wonder why >>it has not been noticed in the country which hosts the >>headquarters of INSNA, where in many places the English speaking >>citizens can see French inscriptions, frequently containing >>pour=for. Leaving this error makes me deduce that no proofreading >>was done after the back cover page had been typed and printed. >> >>My purely visual knowledge of Spanish has turned out sufficient >>to locate the following errors in the Spanish version: >>(1) "Associati#59#n" instead of "Asociaci#59#n"; (2) "Socials" >>instead of "Sociales". >> >>The Dutch translation which I recognized from voor=for looks >>correct. Probably the European Editors of Connections took care >>of this. >> >>It seems to me that the Hungarian translation (the one in which >>"Network" is translated as "H#27#l#59#zat") is also good. >> >>I can't say the same about the German translation. In spite of >>my poor knowledge of this language, I bet the text on the back >>cover page also violates some spelling or grammar rules. Let the >>German subscribers of Socnet (the second largest group among >>European Socnetters) look at this and send the proofs themselves. >> >>As regards other most widely spoken European languages, one of >>them is missing. My moderate knowledge of Italian prompts me the >>following translation: La Rete Internazionale per l'Analisi delle >>Reti Sociali. Let the Italian colleagues (24 names are listed >>when REVIEW SOCNET (BY COUNTRY is sent to the list server) say >>if this is OK (I'm not sure if there should be "delle" rather >>than "di"). >> >>Lastly, let me comment on the line in the Cyrillic alphabet, or >>the item which precedes the penultimate one (probably in Welsh >>or Gaelic). I suspect that the Russian translation was included >>in the list just to mark that the scholars from the postcommunist >>East are not excluded from the world community of science. Let >>the Russian members of INSNA, if there are any, say themselves >>what would make them more angry: the omission of their language >>or a translation like that. Myself, I'm shocked by the low level >>of language consciousness revealed by the person responsible for >>this translation. He or she must have forgotten that every >>language is a structured system rather than a collection of >>words. If you translate a statement from a typically analytical >>language like English into a highly inflected language like Latin >>or most Slavic languages, you can't just look up in a dictionary >>the counterparts of the words which make up the statement. If you >>proceed in this way, the result will be meaningless or ridiculous. >> >>It seems to me even more likely that the Translator (T), did not >>even use an English-Russian Dictionary, but asked an accidentally >>met Russian immigrant (R) with a pretty poor knowledge of English >>to give the counterparts of "international," "network", "for", >>"social", "analysis". >> >>I suspect that the dialogue between T and R ran as follows. >> >>T: Can you help me translate into Russian a couple of common >> English words? >>R: Sure, what's the first word? >>T: <international> >>R: <mezhdunarodnyi'> >> >>Comment: Russian words are transliterated here according to rules >>used in the library catalogs. Note also that R gave the masculine >>form of the adjective <international>; the feminine form is >><mezhdunarodnaya>. >> >>T: Tell me now what is the Russian word for <network> >>R: I'm sorry, I don't know this word. >>T: Perhaps you know the simpler noun <net>. >>R: Unfortunately, I'm not familair with this word, either. >>T: I'll try to describe its meaning. To make a net, you must >> weave strings together. >>R: Then, I guess that what you mean is called <pletenka> in Russian. >> >>Comment: To explain the meaning of <net> to R, T tried to avoid >>any abstract connotations in the hope that this would help R to >>find the right counterpart. As a consequence, R translated <weave> >>as <plesti>. Hence <pletennyi>, or <woven>, and the derived noun >><pletenka>. >> >>R: What is the next word? >>T: <for> >>R: <dla> >>T: <social>? >>R: <obshchestvennyi'> >>T: <analysis>? >>R: <analiz> >>T: That's all. Thank you very much. >> >>What is wrong with this dialogue? First, the Translator did not >>show the whole statement to R. Second, T did not ask R to check >>the result. If R saw the text printed in "Connections", the >>dialogue could go on as shown below and would end up with finding >>the right translation. >> >>R: <Mezhdunarodnyi' pletenka>? This is not grammatically correct, >> it should be <mezhdunarodnaya pletenka> >> >>Comment: a noun and adjective must agree in gender (not only in >>Slavic languages). >> >>T: OK, but is the meaning of the statement clear to you after >> this correction? >>R: Is INSNA an international group of acrobats specialized in >> making nets from their bodies? >>T: No! INSNA is an international association which is called a >> network because its members communicate and establish ties >> among each other. >>R: Why didn't you say this to me at the very beginning? Now I can >> translate properly the word <net> as <set'> and the whole Russian name >> for INSNA will be <Mezhdunarodnaya set' dla analiza >> obshchestvennoy seti> >> >>Comment: R has corrected T's translation of <for social network >>analysis>, retaining the noun <network> in singular in the second >>place. This prompts him to ask the question. >> >>R: What social network is analyzed by the members of this >> association? >>T: They don't analyze a single network. There are many social >> networks and all of them can be studied. >>R: Therefore, the correct translation should be: <Mezhdunarodnaya >> set' dla analiza obshchestvennykh setei'>. >> >>Comment: R changed singular to plural and put all nouns and >>adjectives in appropriate "cases". >> >>T: Thus, what remains yet to be done is to write this text in the >> Cyrillic alphabet. >> >>I can do it myself instead of R. Here is the spelling of the key term: >> >> #10,37#10,11#10,39#10,59#. >> >>If you would like to correct the Russian version, I can send you >>the whole Cyrillic text written in WordPerfect. >> >>The Russian word for "net" and "network" is similar to the Polish >>word (sie#1,97#) and possibly to its counterparts in other Slavic >>languages, though not all, as I infer from the line having >>"Mre()a" (where () stands for a character not recognized by >>WordPerfect). Can somebody tell me whether this line (second from >>top of the list) is in Slovenian or Croatian. I visited Yugoslavia >>in 1987 but failed to get familiar with the basics of these two >>languages which I usually do when I go to an alien language environment. >> >>However, my one day visit to Slovenia was not planned in advance. >>To conclude, let me take this opportunity to send my greetings to >>Anushka and Vladimir whom I met that day in Ljubljana. >> >>And the last question: can anybody translate INSNA to Latin, the >>language used by the European scholars before English. >> >> >>Tad Sozanski >> >>(in Poland: Tadeusz Soza#1,155#ski; "sz" is the counterpart of >>English "sh", #1,155# sounds like Spanish #1,57# or "gn" in >>French or Italian). >> >>_____________________________________________________________________ >>SOCNET is a service of INSNA, the professional association for social >>network researchers (http://www.sfu.ca/~insna/). To unsubscribe, send >>an email message to [log in to unmask] containing the line >>UNSUBSCRIBE SOCNET in the body of the message. >> > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > SOCNET is a service of INSNA, the professional association for social > network researchers (http://www.sfu.ca/~insna/). To unsubscribe, send > an email message to [log in to unmask] containing the line > UNSUBSCRIBE SOCNET in the body of the message. > -- To learn more about my evaluation book go to: http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195141768.html My personal webpage: http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~tvalente/ --- Thomas W. Valente, PhD Director, Master of Public Health Program http://www.usc.edu/medicine/mph/ Department of Preventive Medicine School of Medicine University of Southern California 1000 S. Fremont Ave. Building A Room 5133 Alhambra CA 91803 phone: (626) 457-6678 fax: (626) 457-6699 email: [log in to unmask] _____________________________________________________________________ SOCNET is a service of INSNA, the professional association for social network researchers (http://www.sfu.ca/~insna/). To unsubscribe, send an email message to [log in to unmask] containing the line UNSUBSCRIBE SOCNET in the body of the message.