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At our school, this is exactly what we do. William is absolutely right! I don't feel like I can reach both student types because their problems are so diverse. Sometimes my ESL students understand more than my native students, and other times I feel like I leave my ESL students in the dust. Because I don't have time to address both groups equally, I begin to feel as though no one is really learning. I know this must be reflected in the exit testing that we do. And yet, no one in administration wants to believe that this is a problem. There are no ESL specific classes because they are afraid of violating people's civil rights. I'm not so sure they're actually getting around that issue by throwing ESL students in the class room with native students. -----Original Message----- From: Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of William W. Ziegler Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:02 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Low literacy levels in developmental reading and writing courses I would be leery of putting the folks who need ESL reading development in the same class with lower level native speakers. It might work out all right, given a sensitive instructor highly skilled in both reading development and language acquisition, and the two populations can learn from each other. However, the instructional needs are entirely different. Depending on their previous experience, ESL students may have more sophisticated reading strategies and considerably more background knowledge in academic disciplines than do native speakers; on the other hand, native speakers have developed more extensive everyday vocabulary and cultural background knowledge. An analogy may be to people who finish with the slowest times in a race. Some of them might not have developed effective running techniques; some might have arrived late at the starting line, some might have worn the wrong kind of shoe.... They don't all need the same things. -----Original Message----- From: Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mary Weller Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 6:33 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Low literacy levels in developmental reading and writing courses Hi, I'm attaching the assessment placement chart for the placement decision we made this fall as a pilot. We are using the COMPASS and the COMPASS Diagnostic as a second assessment tool. While we are pleased with the results of the COMPASS assessment and diagnostic, we still have issues of students "self-placing" and therefore, registering for the wrong reading course and the local literacy council referred students progressing so slowly that it can take years for students to be ready to come back to the college to take the COMPASS again! This is true for the ESL students as well. So, all in all, we don't really have a resource for the lower level readers nor the ESL low level readers. Because we are such a small college, there is a concern that we shouldn't offer ESL reading classes because we wouldn't have enough students to fill a class and then the question becomes should we put the lower level native speakers in the same class as the ESL students. I'm open to thoughts on this local issue. Mary Mary Weller Reading and Study Skills Instructor Kellogg Community College 450 North Avenue Battle Creek, MI 49017-3397 [log in to unmask] 269-965-3931 X2286 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To access the LRNASST-L archives or User Guide, or to change your subscription options (including subscribe/unsubscribe), point your web browser to http://www.lists.ufl.edu/archives/lrnasst-l.html To contact the LRNASST-L owner, email [log in to unmask] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To access the LRNASST-L archives or User Guide, or to change your subscription options (including subscribe/unsubscribe), point your web browser to http://www.lists.ufl.edu/archives/lrnasst-l.html To contact the LRNASST-L owner, email [log in to unmask] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To access the LRNASST-L archives or User Guide, or to change your subscription options (including subscribe/unsubscribe), point your web browser to http://www.lists.ufl.edu/archives/lrnasst-l.html To contact the LRNASST-L owner, email [log in to unmask]