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Okay, Gary,

I guess I have to retract SOME of what I said about facilities, materials,
etc. being essential to good education.  However, I do stand behind what I
said about dedicated teachers who don't look down on their students!  I
cringe when I hear college teachers talking about "the kids" in their
classes! and I cringe even more when they "dis" the students!

Peggy Keller



On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, TSD99 wrote:

> Gary Probst replied privately:
>
> I agree 1000 percent with you.  What I find interesting is how teachers
> and community college faculty label students who do not succeed as
> coming from poor families.  At our community college two developmental
> faculty members keep telling me their student do not succeed because
> they are poor. I keep asking them, "What is it your students dress
> better than they you do?"
>
> I attended a one room school house that had a pump for drinking water
> and an outhouse.  Some students did not have shoes.  I do not know
> anyone who did not learn to read and do math.  Just think what my school
> lacked: running water, heat, toilets, specialists, library, science
> projects, lunch room, principal, sex education, sports, music program,
> computers, etc.   In one room school only the basics were taught.
>
> What I find amazing is my developmental math student do not know how
> math facts such as "many inches are in a yard" or "8 times 5 is what
> number."  However, these students all passed algebra in high school.
>
> Sue Lorraine Lavorata wrote:
> >
> > There are a few issues here, there is the issue of having higher
> > standards in the public schools and that of making teachers and
> > students both more accountable and have everyone take responsibility
> > for the problem. Let's stop the leftist attitude of blaming poverty,
> > society or other "stuff" for the education problems and let's lay the
> > proble where it is, in the educational system, with teachers, parents
> > and students. Let's stop all this feel-good self-esteem stuff and
> > let's get down to brass tack teaching of the basics, grammar, math,
> > science, problem solving skills etc and give students what they need
> > to succeed in college, and employment. When I get the students in the
> > college classes I teach, I get them unable to write a paper or
> > construct a have decent sentence. I think the students and the
> > teachers need to both be accountable as does the administration. We
> > all must share the responsibility. Open admission does have its
> > problems, standards the issue. I really feel that Guiliani has a
> > point, maybe he is just a little too extreme, but some modification
> > of open admission should be an order. Sorry for my strong views, but
> > this is what I feel would help this inherent problem. Prof L
> >
> > > Oh, so it's up to the STUDENTS to prepare themselves (on their own??) for
> > > college! I guess that lets us educators off the hook, huh?
> > >
> > > Seriously, this bit of pseudospeak doesn't seem to address the issue of
> > > "disastrous consequences" of an uneducated populace, does it!  Nor does it
> > > address the issue of why so many students seem to end up "poorly prepared"
> > > for college!
> > >
> > > We've been dealing with that here, too.  Our English 100 outcome
> > > expectations are widely different from the Freshman Comp income
> > > expectation, which leave 100 students who pass feeling competent only to
> > > find out that they are not when they arrive in Freshman Comp!  AARRGGHH!
> > >
> > > I think what we need is a little less buck-passing and name-calling and a
> > > little bit more let's-fix-the-damn-problem!  (for what it's worth, since I
> > > am neither a politician nor an instructor, only a lowly tutor!)  Seems to
> > > me what Mayor Giuliani is advocating is tossing the poor baby (students)
> > > out with the proverbial bathwater!
> > >
> > >
> > > Peggy Keller
> > > English Instructional Technician
> > > Assistance Centers for Education
> > > Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute
> > > 525 Buena Vista SE
> > > Albuquerque, NM  87106
> > >
> > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Norman Stahl wrote:
> > >
> > > >  NEW YORK CITY'S Mayor, Rudolph W. Giuliani, on Wednesday
> > > >    called on the City University of New York to end open
> > > >    enrollment, saying that the admission of poorly prepared
> > > >    students had resulted in alarmingly low graduation rates, a
> > > >    trend with "disastrous consequences" for the city.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *********************************
> > > > Norman A. Stahl, Chair
> > > > Department of
> > > > Curriculum & Instruction
> > > > Northern Illinois University
> > > > DeKalb, IL  60115
> > > >
> > > > Telephone:
> > > > (815) 753-9032 {office}
> > > > (815) 753-9040 (FAX)
> > > >
> > > > Email: [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > >
> > Sue Lorraine Lavorata
> > E-MAIL:  [log in to unmask]
>