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Boy, do I agree with Prof. Lavorata about too much focus on
"touchy-feely," "Dr.Feelgood" methods of education!  However, I don't
think we should go back to publicly shaming students who don't "get it"
either, as good ol' Sister R. did to me when I couldn't do my times tables
quickly enough to suit her!  Somewhere there has to be a happy medium,
where students' self-esteem is fostered through a real sense of
accomplishment!  I think students need to be told that learning is like
any other job--you get "promoted" when you do the job well, and
"reprimanded" or "fired" if you don't.  But even that does not mean that
the "reprimanded" or "fired" student should go on educational "welfare"
and never have to try again!  "Right to fail" should not mean "right to
quit trying."

Peggy Keller
English Instructional Technician
Assistance Centers for Education
Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute
525 Buena Vista SE
Albuquerque, NM  87106


On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Sue Lorraine Lavorata wrote:

> Gary:
>
> very well said. That is a good point that poor children in the one
> room schoolhouse without running water learned better than children
> today. That is because learning was the focus and not this feel good
> constructivist stuff. Constructivism is fine once the basics are
> taught and it is used for enhancement but it should not be used as
> the only tool for learning. Schools should get back to brass tacks
> and stop all this feel-good self esteem stuff. With academic success
> that self esteem stuff will automatically come. Remember Abe Maslow's
> model:)
>
> Thanks Prof L
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, TSD99 wrote:
> >
> > > Gary Probst replied privately:
> > >
> > > I agree 1000 percent with you.  What I find interesting is how teachers
> > > and community college faculty label students who do not succeed as
> > > coming from poor families.  At our community college two developmental
> > > faculty members keep telling me their student do not succeed because
> > > they are poor. I keep asking them, "What is it your students dress
> > > better than they you do?"
> > >
> > > I attended a one room school house that had a pump for drinking water
> > > and an outhouse.  Some students did not have shoes.  I do not know
> > > anyone who did not learn to read and do math.  Just think what my school
> > > lacked: running water, heat, toilets, specialists, library, science
> > > projects, lunch room, principal, sex education, sports, music program,
> > > computers, etc.   In one room school only the basics were taught.
> > >
> > > What I find amazing is my developmental math student do not know how
> > > math facts such as "many inches are in a yard" or "8 times 5 is what
> > > number."  However, these students all passed algebra in high school.
> > >
> > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There are a few issues here, there is the issue of having higher
> > > > standards in the public schools and that of making teachers and
> > > > students both more accountable and have everyone take responsibility
> > > > for the problem. Let's stop the leftist attitude of blaming poverty,
> > > > society or other "stuff" for the education problems and let's lay the
> > > > proble where it is, in the educational system, with teachers, parents
> > > > and students. Let's stop all this feel-good self-esteem stuff and
> > > > let's get down to brass tack teaching of the basics, grammar, math,
> > > > science, problem solving skills etc and give students what they need
> > > > to succeed in college, and employment. When I get the students in the
> > > > college classes I teach, I get them unable to write a paper or
> > > > construct a have decent sentence. I think the students and the
> > > > teachers need to both be accountable as does the administration. We
> > > > all must share the responsibility. Open admission does have its
> > > > problems, standards the issue. I really feel that Guiliani has a
> > > > point, maybe he is just a little too extreme, but some modification
> > > > of open admission should be an order. Sorry for my strong views, but
> > > > this is what I feel would help this inherent problem. Prof L
> > > >
> > > > > Oh, so it's up to the STUDENTS to prepare themselves (on their own??) for
> > > > > college! I guess that lets us educators off the hook, huh?
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously, this bit of pseudospeak doesn't seem to address the issue of
> > > > > "disastrous consequences" of an uneducated populace, does it!  Nor does it
> > > > > address the issue of why so many students seem to end up "poorly prepared"
> > > > > for college!
> > > > >
> > > > > We've been dealing with that here, too.  Our English 100 outcome
> > > > > expectations are widely different from the Freshman Comp income
> > > > > expectation, which leave 100 students who pass feeling competent only to
> > > > > find out that they are not when they arrive in Freshman Comp!  AARRGGHH!
> > > > >
> > > > > I think what we need is a little less buck-passing and name-calling and a
> > > > > little bit more let's-fix-the-damn-problem!  (for what it's worth, since I
> > > > > am neither a politician nor an instructor, only a lowly tutor!)  Seems to
> > > > > me what Mayor Giuliani is advocating is tossing the poor baby (students)
> > > > > out with the proverbial bathwater!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Peggy Keller
> > > > > English Instructional Technician
> > > > > Assistance Centers for Education
> > > > > Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute
> > > > > 525 Buena Vista SE
> > > > > Albuquerque, NM  87106
> > > > >
> > > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Norman Stahl wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  NEW YORK CITY'S Mayor, Rudolph W. Giuliani, on Wednesday
> > > > > >    called on the City University of New York to end open
> > > > > >    enrollment, saying that the admission of poorly prepared
> > > > > >    students had resulted in alarmingly low graduation rates, a
> > > > > >    trend with "disastrous consequences" for the city.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *********************************
> > > > > > Norman A. Stahl, Chair
> > > > > > Department of
> > > > > > Curriculum & Instruction
> > > > > > Northern Illinois University
> > > > > > DeKalb, IL  60115
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Telephone:
> > > > > > (815) 753-9032 {office}
> > > > > > (815) 753-9040 (FAX)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Email: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata
> > > > E-MAIL:  [log in to unmask]
> > >
> >
> Sue Lorraine Lavorata
> E-MAIL:  [log in to unmask]
>