Print

Print


well said Peggy and thanks for the agreement. You said it perfectly!
A happy medium is an order and learning should be the student's
occupation and treated as such. I like the term "educational
welfare". I have had many students who thought they were entitled to
that. Thanks. Prof L

> Boy, do I agree with Prof. Lavorata about too much focus on
> "touchy-feely," "Dr.Feelgood" methods of education!  However, I don't
> think we should go back to publicly shaming students who don't "get it"
> either, as good ol' Sister R. did to me when I couldn't do my times tables
> quickly enough to suit her!  Somewhere there has to be a happy medium,
> where students' self-esteem is fostered through a real sense of
> accomplishment!  I think students need to be told that learning is like
> any other job--you get "promoted" when you do the job well, and
> "reprimanded" or "fired" if you don't.  But even that does not mean that
> the "reprimanded" or "fired" student should go on educational "welfare"
> and never have to try again!  "Right to fail" should not mean "right to
> quit trying."
>
> Peggy Keller
> English Instructional Technician
> Assistance Centers for Education
> Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute
> 525 Buena Vista SE
> Albuquerque, NM  87106
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Sue Lorraine Lavorata wrote:
>
> > Gary:
> >
> > very well said. That is a good point that poor children in the one
> > room schoolhouse without running water learned better than children
> > today. That is because learning was the focus and not this feel good
> > constructivist stuff. Constructivism is fine once the basics are
> > taught and it is used for enhancement but it should not be used as
> > the only tool for learning. Schools should get back to brass tacks
> > and stop all this feel-good self esteem stuff. With academic success
> > that self esteem stuff will automatically come. Remember Abe Maslow's
> > model:)
> >
> > Thanks Prof L
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, TSD99 wrote:
> > >
> > > > Gary Probst replied privately:
> > > >
> > > > I agree 1000 percent with you.  What I find interesting is how teachers
> > > > and community college faculty label students who do not succeed as
> > > > coming from poor families.  At our community college two developmental
> > > > faculty members keep telling me their student do not succeed because
> > > > they are poor. I keep asking them, "What is it your students dress
> > > > better than they you do?"
> > > >
> > > > I attended a one room school house that had a pump for drinking water
> > > > and an outhouse.  Some students did not have shoes.  I do not know
> > > > anyone who did not learn to read and do math.  Just think what my school
> > > > lacked: running water, heat, toilets, specialists, library, science
> > > > projects, lunch room, principal, sex education, sports, music program,
> > > > computers, etc.   In one room school only the basics were taught.
> > > >
> > > > What I find amazing is my developmental math student do not know how
> > > > math facts such as "many inches are in a yard" or "8 times 5 is what
> > > > number."  However, these students all passed algebra in high school.
> > > >
> > > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a few issues here, there is the issue of having higher
> > > > > standards in the public schools and that of making teachers and
> > > > > students both more accountable and have everyone take responsibility
> > > > > for the problem. Let's stop the leftist attitude of blaming poverty,
> > > > > society or other "stuff" for the education problems and let's lay the
> > > > > proble where it is, in the educational system, with teachers, parents
> > > > > and students. Let's stop all this feel-good self-esteem stuff and
> > > > > let's get down to brass tack teaching of the basics, grammar, math,
> > > > > science, problem solving skills etc and give students what they need
> > > > > to succeed in college, and employment. When I get the students in the
> > > > > college classes I teach, I get them unable to write a paper or
> > > > > construct a have decent sentence. I think the students and the
> > > > > teachers need to both be accountable as does the administration. We
> > > > > all must share the responsibility. Open admission does have its
> > > > > problems, standards the issue. I really feel that Guiliani has a
> > > > > point, maybe he is just a little too extreme, but some modification
> > > > > of open admission should be an order. Sorry for my strong views, but
> > > > > this is what I feel would help this inherent problem. Prof L
> > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, so it's up to the STUDENTS to prepare themselves (on their own??) for
> > > > > > college! I guess that lets us educators off the hook, huh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seriously, this bit of pseudospeak doesn't seem to address the issue of
> > > > > > "disastrous consequences" of an uneducated populace, does it!  Nor does it
> > > > > > address the issue of why so many students seem to end up "poorly prepared"
> > > > > > for college!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We've been dealing with that here, too.  Our English 100 outcome
> > > > > > expectations are widely different from the Freshman Comp income
> > > > > > expectation, which leave 100 students who pass feeling competent only to
> > > > > > find out that they are not when they arrive in Freshman Comp!  AARRGGHH!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think what we need is a little less buck-passing and name-calling and a
> > > > > > little bit more let's-fix-the-damn-problem!  (for what it's worth, since I
> > > > > > am neither a politician nor an instructor, only a lowly tutor!)  Seems to
> > > > > > me what Mayor Giuliani is advocating is tossing the poor baby (students)
> > > > > > out with the proverbial bathwater!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Peggy Keller
> > > > > > English Instructional Technician
> > > > > > Assistance Centers for Education
> > > > > > Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute
> > > > > > 525 Buena Vista SE
> > > > > > Albuquerque, NM  87106
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Norman Stahl wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >  NEW YORK CITY'S Mayor, Rudolph W. Giuliani, on Wednesday
> > > > > > >    called on the City University of New York to end open
> > > > > > >    enrollment, saying that the admission of poorly prepared
> > > > > > >    students had resulted in alarmingly low graduation rates, a
> > > > > > >    trend with "disastrous consequences" for the city.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *********************************
> > > > > > > Norman A. Stahl, Chair
> > > > > > > Department of
> > > > > > > Curriculum & Instruction
> > > > > > > Northern Illinois University
> > > > > > > DeKalb, IL  60115
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Telephone:
> > > > > > > (815) 753-9032 {office}
> > > > > > > (815) 753-9040 (FAX)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Email: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata
> > > > > E-MAIL:  [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > >
> > Sue Lorraine Lavorata
> > E-MAIL:  [log in to unmask]
> >
>
Sue Lorraine Lavorata
E-MAIL:  [log in to unmask]