well said Peggy and thanks for the agreement. You said it perfectly! A happy medium is an order and learning should be the student's occupation and treated as such. I like the term "educational welfare". I have had many students who thought they were entitled to that. Thanks. Prof L > Boy, do I agree with Prof. Lavorata about too much focus on > "touchy-feely," "Dr.Feelgood" methods of education! However, I don't > think we should go back to publicly shaming students who don't "get it" > either, as good ol' Sister R. did to me when I couldn't do my times tables > quickly enough to suit her! Somewhere there has to be a happy medium, > where students' self-esteem is fostered through a real sense of > accomplishment! I think students need to be told that learning is like > any other job--you get "promoted" when you do the job well, and > "reprimanded" or "fired" if you don't. But even that does not mean that > the "reprimanded" or "fired" student should go on educational "welfare" > and never have to try again! "Right to fail" should not mean "right to > quit trying." > > Peggy Keller > English Instructional Technician > Assistance Centers for Education > Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute > 525 Buena Vista SE > Albuquerque, NM 87106 > > > On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Sue Lorraine Lavorata wrote: > > > Gary: > > > > very well said. That is a good point that poor children in the one > > room schoolhouse without running water learned better than children > > today. That is because learning was the focus and not this feel good > > constructivist stuff. Constructivism is fine once the basics are > > taught and it is used for enhancement but it should not be used as > > the only tool for learning. Schools should get back to brass tacks > > and stop all this feel-good self esteem stuff. With academic success > > that self esteem stuff will automatically come. Remember Abe Maslow's > > model:) > > > > Thanks Prof L > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, TSD99 wrote: > > > > > > > Gary Probst replied privately: > > > > > > > > I agree 1000 percent with you. What I find interesting is how teachers > > > > and community college faculty label students who do not succeed as > > > > coming from poor families. At our community college two developmental > > > > faculty members keep telling me their student do not succeed because > > > > they are poor. I keep asking them, "What is it your students dress > > > > better than they you do?" > > > > > > > > I attended a one room school house that had a pump for drinking water > > > > and an outhouse. Some students did not have shoes. I do not know > > > > anyone who did not learn to read and do math. Just think what my school > > > > lacked: running water, heat, toilets, specialists, library, science > > > > projects, lunch room, principal, sex education, sports, music program, > > > > computers, etc. In one room school only the basics were taught. > > > > > > > > What I find amazing is my developmental math student do not know how > > > > math facts such as "many inches are in a yard" or "8 times 5 is what > > > > number." However, these students all passed algebra in high school. > > > > > > > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There are a few issues here, there is the issue of having higher > > > > > standards in the public schools and that of making teachers and > > > > > students both more accountable and have everyone take responsibility > > > > > for the problem. Let's stop the leftist attitude of blaming poverty, > > > > > society or other "stuff" for the education problems and let's lay the > > > > > proble where it is, in the educational system, with teachers, parents > > > > > and students. Let's stop all this feel-good self-esteem stuff and > > > > > let's get down to brass tack teaching of the basics, grammar, math, > > > > > science, problem solving skills etc and give students what they need > > > > > to succeed in college, and employment. When I get the students in the > > > > > college classes I teach, I get them unable to write a paper or > > > > > construct a have decent sentence. I think the students and the > > > > > teachers need to both be accountable as does the administration. We > > > > > all must share the responsibility. Open admission does have its > > > > > problems, standards the issue. I really feel that Guiliani has a > > > > > point, maybe he is just a little too extreme, but some modification > > > > > of open admission should be an order. Sorry for my strong views, but > > > > > this is what I feel would help this inherent problem. Prof L > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, so it's up to the STUDENTS to prepare themselves (on their own??) for > > > > > > college! I guess that lets us educators off the hook, huh? > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously, this bit of pseudospeak doesn't seem to address the issue of > > > > > > "disastrous consequences" of an uneducated populace, does it! Nor does it > > > > > > address the issue of why so many students seem to end up "poorly prepared" > > > > > > for college! > > > > > > > > > > > > We've been dealing with that here, too. Our English 100 outcome > > > > > > expectations are widely different from the Freshman Comp income > > > > > > expectation, which leave 100 students who pass feeling competent only to > > > > > > find out that they are not when they arrive in Freshman Comp! AARRGGHH! > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what we need is a little less buck-passing and name-calling and a > > > > > > little bit more let's-fix-the-damn-problem! (for what it's worth, since I > > > > > > am neither a politician nor an instructor, only a lowly tutor!) Seems to > > > > > > me what Mayor Giuliani is advocating is tossing the poor baby (students) > > > > > > out with the proverbial bathwater! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peggy Keller > > > > > > English Instructional Technician > > > > > > Assistance Centers for Education > > > > > > Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute > > > > > > 525 Buena Vista SE > > > > > > Albuquerque, NM 87106 > > > > > > > > > > > > <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Norman Stahl wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > NEW YORK CITY'S Mayor, Rudolph W. Giuliani, on Wednesday > > > > > > > called on the City University of New York to end open > > > > > > > enrollment, saying that the admission of poorly prepared > > > > > > > students had resulted in alarmingly low graduation rates, a > > > > > > > trend with "disastrous consequences" for the city. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************* > > > > > > > Norman A. Stahl, Chair > > > > > > > Department of > > > > > > > Curriculum & Instruction > > > > > > > Northern Illinois University > > > > > > > DeKalb, IL 60115 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Telephone: > > > > > > > (815) 753-9032 {office} > > > > > > > (815) 753-9040 (FAX) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata > > > > > E-MAIL: [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata > > E-MAIL: [log in to unmask] > > > Sue Lorraine Lavorata E-MAIL: [log in to unmask]