In your example of the problem solving issue, it may also be that the student could have a neurological disability that must be understood and accommodated. Thanks for the discourse. France ===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals <[log in to unmask]> ===== >As an undergraduate in secondary education, I developed a test for >students at the highest level in high school ("college prep") in which >more than half of the students earned a D. In my naivete I had written a >test which asked them to apply the knowledge rather than just repeat it. > >In my current work with college students, every now and then, I encounter >an high school honor student who is working hard but barely earning a C >or less in exams. This is where we discuss the importance of going beyond >the what level of understanding to why, how and suppose. When I ask these >students if an apple and banana are the same, they often say no. Then when >I ask, how are they similar, they come up with the category fruit. It is >not a matter of ability. It comes back to learning style/individual >perspective. These are the students who may be able to solve the problem >but cannot justify the approach. In the case of the at-risk students, we >need to factor in attitude/values which clash with the traditional >learning environment. > >Whether a student chooses to work hard/effectively is beyond our control. >We can only provide the options/encouragement/support. We all recognize >that internal motivation is critical, but much of society operates on >external motivation. No wonder so many students are >confused/helpless/unmotivated. I like to believe that there are more >students who are succeeding than not. The good news is that there's plenty >of work for us to do. Which reminds me...got to get back to work. > >Aloha, Rosie > > >Rosemarie Woodruff >Counseling and Student Development Center >University of Hawaii-Manoa >2600 Campus Road, SSC 312 >Honolulu, HI 96822 >808-965-6114 > > The world is full of obstacle illusions. > Grant Frasier > >On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Prof Lorraine Lavorata wrote: > >> I agree to some degree but the example of Just Say No is not a good one >> because that was alot more than just a slogan, it involved going into schools >> and doing outreach and working with children in groups and projects about drug >> abuse. Now for this issue of inner city kids, they have to do something to get >> somethinhg. One cannot rest on their laurels and it is not just like Mager >> they oughta wanna so to speak, it is reality. If I sat on my derriere I would >> not be a college teacher pursuing a doctorate. If any one of us sat on our >> derrieres we would not be the successful educational professionals we are >> today. Well if innercity kids want a piece of the pie they need to work for >> it. I blame their culture and families for the way they are since all they see >> is welfare, drug abuse etc. We need to go into these communities and do >> outreach and provide education and show role models who have made it because >> they took the right classs and did the work to get there. IN my doctoral >> programme Herve Varenne is one of my professors and he is from France and I >> have heritage from France. MY little France cohort however, feels that the >> outside needs to be fixed in society and not these innercity kids. Well I feel >> that the outside sure needs fixing, but most of the fixing is within the >> innercity culture. We as academics must reverence hard work, money and success >> and instead of downgrading business and money. We need to teach innercity kids >> that work is the key to success, not gangs. Have them use their leaderships >> skills used for gangs in some community service or some work group in the >> classroom. and most of all make sure they must take more classes and let's >> stop encouraging remedical education, let's encourage hard work in high >> school. Thanks France >> >> >> ===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals >> <[log in to unmask]> ===== >> >The response from "France" is controversial for good reason. The concept >> >of free will and individual responsibility is widely overdrawn. It may be >> >possible for us to relieve ourselves of the feeling of responsibility by >> >suggesting that, in Mager's words, "they really oughta wanta," but in >> >reality it is about as effective as the "just say no' propaganda effort to >> >reduce drug use. Evidence suggests that neither is the least effective. >> > >> >On the other hand, the fact that these young people have grown up in an >> >environment that did not lead them to prepare themselves for academia, >> >should not require society to create a sort of academic special olympics, >> >where everyone can succeed no matter what their disability. Practicality >> >demands that we maintain the standards that society requires and at the >> >same time offer something of value to those who cannot--for whatever >> >reasons--meet those standards. I think we know how to do the former; I see >> >no evidence that we have a clue regarding the latter. When half of my >> >pre-pre-college students fail to pass the arithmetic course for the second >> >time, what helpful advice can I give them? >> > >> >John M. Flanigan <[log in to unmask]> The equation is the final arbiter. >> >Assistant Professor, Mathematics --Werner Heisenberg >> >Kapi'olani Community College The scoreboard is the final arbiter. >> >4303 Diamond Head Road --Bill Walton >> >Honolulu HI 96816 History is the final arbiter. >> >(808) 734-9371 --Edward Gibbon >> > >> >On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Prof Lorraine Lavorata wrote: >> > >> >> What you say is right. I will add some very controversial yet very true >> >> observations. If poor, inner-city NYC youths are not motivated enough to >> take >> >> the required courses in high school then it is their fault why they are at >> a >> >> lower level and cannot pass the regents. They need to start challenging >> their >> >> minds instead of their fellow citizens in street gangs. It is not society's >> >> fault but their own. The education is available and if these students would >> >> take advantage, we would not need to pile up the remedial classes in >> colleges >> >> where students should already have the skills. In France these students >> would >> >> not even get the baccalareat and pass the lycee let alone get into a >> >> university. There is no open enrollment in France and in America, we should >> >> start modeling after France. France >> >> >> >> >> >> ===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance >> Professionals >> >> <[log in to unmask]> ===== >> >> >Re the Regents' difficulty level: As you said, reactions really >> >> >depend on where one is coming from. At my specialized high school, >> >> >we were always glad to take a Regents because it was easier than >> >> >our school's final exams. For students in an inner-city high >> >> >school, they would be difficult. >> >> > >> >> >The format in my time was usually a multiple-choice cumulative >> >> >final, testing subject knowledge. It was all factual and, as >> >> >one of the posts said, we got the previous exams to practice on >> >> >so we knew exactly what to expect. I used to feel that there >> >> >was a precise way you had to take the questions--not read too >> >> >much or too little into them--and if you got a "feel" for that >> >> >you could do well. >> >> > >> >> >In New York City, I suspect that most students who don't pass >> >> >the Regents have not taken the courses, as opposed to taking the >> >> >exams and failing them. E.g. an academic diploma requires 3 >> >> >years of high school math and a general diploma requires 1 or 2. >> >> >General students take only the minimum required courses. That is >> >> >why they jack up the remedial load at a place like CUNY--if they >> >> >haven't taken intermediate algebra, they simply have to take it >> >> >at CUNY for no credit. >> >> > >> >> >Because the Regents are subject tests, they have no meaningful >> >> >correspondence to the SAT (except in so far as bright students >> >> >who test well will do well on all types of tests). >> >> > >> >> >Another question was about the Regents College Test. Years ago >> >> >there was a Regents Scholarship Test. I don't recall the content >> >> >except that it was grueling (I think it took two full days). >> >> >They were used for awarding merit scholarships, the precise >> >> >amount of which was then aligned with your tuition. That was >> >> >abolished a number of years ago and was replaced by the Tuition >> >> >Assistance Program which is based solely on financial need. I >> >> >assume the reason was that with the advent of open admissions and >> >> >the imposition of tuition at CUNY (which used to be free), poor >> >> >and underprepared students became the primary population at CUNY >> >> >and perhaps at other colleges as well. >> >> > >> >> >Again, apologies to the upstate people for my painting such a >> >> >provincially New York City picture! I've been accused of being >> >> >too provincial more than once before, but it's all I know--which >> >> >means, I guess, that the label fits. >> >> > >> >> >Annette Gourgey >> >> >> >> Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte >> >> Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin >> >> vive la France >> >> >> >> Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte >> Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin >> vive la France >> Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin vive la France