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In your example of the problem solving issue, it may also be that the student
could have a neurological disability that must be understood and accommodated.
Thanks for the discourse. France

===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals
<[log in to unmask]> =====
>As an undergraduate in secondary education, I developed a test for
>students at the highest level in high school ("college prep") in which
>more than half of the students earned a D. In my naivete I had written a
>test which asked them to apply the knowledge rather than just repeat it.
>
>In my current work with college students, every now and then, I encounter
>an high school honor student who is working hard but barely earning a C
>or less in exams. This is where we discuss the importance of going beyond
>the what level of understanding to why, how and suppose. When I ask these
>students if an apple and banana are the same, they often say no. Then when
>I ask, how are they similar, they come up with the category fruit. It is
>not a matter of ability. It comes back to learning style/individual
>perspective. These are the students who may be able to solve the problem
>but cannot justify the approach. In the case of the at-risk students, we
>need to factor in attitude/values which clash with the traditional
>learning environment.
>
>Whether a student chooses to work hard/effectively is beyond our control.
>We can only provide the options/encouragement/support. We all recognize
>that internal motivation is critical, but much of society operates on
>external motivation. No wonder so many students are
>confused/helpless/unmotivated. I like to believe that there are more
>students who are succeeding than not. The good news is that there's plenty
>of work for us to do. Which reminds me...got to get back to work.
>
>Aloha,  Rosie
>
>
>Rosemarie Woodruff
>Counseling and Student Development Center
>University of Hawaii-Manoa
>2600 Campus Road, SSC 312
>Honolulu, HI 96822
>808-965-6114
>
>                The world is full of obstacle illusions.
>                                                         Grant Frasier
>
>On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Prof Lorraine Lavorata wrote:
>
>> I agree to some degree but the example of Just Say No is not a good one
>> because that was alot more than just a slogan, it involved going into
schools
>> and doing outreach and working with children in groups and projects about
drug
>> abuse. Now for this issue of inner city kids, they have to do something to
get
>> somethinhg. One cannot rest on their laurels and it is not just like Mager
>> they oughta wanna so to speak, it is reality. If I sat on my derriere I
would
>> not be a college teacher pursuing a doctorate. If any one of us sat on our
>> derrieres we would not be the successful educational professionals we are
>> today. Well if innercity kids want a piece of the pie they need to work for
>> it. I blame their culture and families for the way they are since all they
see
>> is welfare, drug abuse etc. We need to go into these communities and do
>> outreach and provide education and show role models who have made it
because
>> they took the right classs and did the work to get there. IN my doctoral
>> programme Herve Varenne is one of my professors and he is from France and I
>> have heritage from France. MY little France cohort however, feels that the
>> outside needs to be fixed in society and not these innercity kids. Well I
feel
>> that the outside sure needs fixing, but most of the fixing is within the
>> innercity culture. We as academics must reverence hard work, money and
success
>> and instead of downgrading business and money. We need to teach innercity
kids
>> that work is the key to success, not gangs. Have them use their leaderships
>> skills used for gangs in some community service or some work group in the
>> classroom. and most of all make sure they must take more classes and let's
>> stop encouraging remedical education, let's encourage hard work in high
>> school. Thanks France
>>
>>
>> ===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance
Professionals
>> <[log in to unmask]> =====
>> >The response from "France" is controversial for good reason. The concept
>> >of free will and individual responsibility is widely overdrawn. It may be
>> >possible for us to relieve ourselves of the feeling of responsibility by
>> >suggesting that, in Mager's words, "they really oughta wanta," but in
>> >reality it is about as effective as the "just say no' propaganda effort to
>> >reduce drug use. Evidence suggests that neither is the least effective.
>> >
>> >On the other hand, the fact that these young people have grown up in an
>> >environment that did not lead them to prepare themselves for academia,
>> >should not require society to create a sort of academic special olympics,
>> >where everyone can succeed no matter what their disability. Practicality
>> >demands that we maintain the standards that society requires and at the
>> >same time offer something of value to those who cannot--for whatever
>> >reasons--meet those standards. I think we know how to do the former; I see
>> >no evidence that we have a clue regarding the latter. When half of my
>> >pre-pre-college students fail to pass the arithmetic course for the second
>> >time, what helpful advice can I give them?
>> >
>> >John M. Flanigan <[log in to unmask]>     The equation is the final arbiter.
>> >Assistant Professor, Mathematics                    --Werner Heisenberg
>> >Kapi'olani Community College            The scoreboard is the final
arbiter.
>> >4303 Diamond Head Road                              --Bill Walton
>> >Honolulu HI  96816                      History is the final arbiter.
>> >(808) 734-9371                                      --Edward Gibbon
>> >
>> >On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Prof Lorraine Lavorata wrote:
>> >
>> >> What you say is right. I will add some very controversial yet very true
>> >> observations. If poor, inner-city NYC youths are not motivated enough to
>> take
>> >> the required courses in high school then it is their fault why they are
at
>> a
>> >> lower level and cannot pass the regents. They need to start challenging
>> their
>> >> minds instead of their fellow citizens in street gangs. It is not
society's
>> >> fault but their own. The education is available and if these students
would
>> >> take advantage, we would not need to pile up the remedial classes in
>> colleges
>> >> where students should already have the skills. In France these students
>> would
>> >> not even get the baccalareat and pass the lycee let alone get into a
>> >> university. There is no open enrollment in France and in America, we
should
>> >> start modeling after France. France
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance
>> Professionals
>> >> <[log in to unmask]> =====
>> >> >Re the Regents' difficulty level:  As you said, reactions really
>> >> >depend on where one is coming from.  At my specialized high school,
>> >> >we were always glad to take a Regents because it was easier than
>> >> >our school's final exams.  For students in an inner-city high
>> >> >school, they would be difficult.
>> >> >
>> >> >The format in my time was usually a multiple-choice cumulative
>> >> >final, testing subject knowledge.  It was all factual and, as
>> >> >one of the posts said, we got the previous exams to practice on
>> >> >so we knew exactly what to expect.  I used to feel that there
>> >> >was a precise way you had to take the questions--not read too
>> >> >much or too little into them--and if you got a "feel" for that
>> >> >you could do well.
>> >> >
>> >> >In New York City, I suspect that most students who don't pass
>> >> >the Regents have not taken the courses, as opposed to taking the
>> >> >exams and failing them.  E.g. an academic diploma requires 3
>> >> >years of high school math and a general diploma requires 1 or 2.
>> >> >General students take only the minimum required courses.  That is
>> >> >why they jack up the remedial load at a place like CUNY--if they
>> >> >haven't taken intermediate algebra, they simply have to take it
>> >> >at CUNY for no credit.
>> >> >
>> >> >Because the Regents are subject tests, they have no meaningful
>> >> >correspondence to the SAT (except in so far as bright students
>> >> >who test well will do well on all types of tests).
>> >> >
>> >> >Another question was about the Regents College Test.  Years ago
>> >> >there was a Regents Scholarship Test.  I don't recall the content
>> >> >except that it was grueling (I think it took two full days).
>> >> >They were used for awarding merit scholarships, the precise
>> >> >amount of which was then aligned with your tuition.  That was
>> >> >abolished a number of years ago and was replaced by the Tuition
>> >> >Assistance Program which is based solely on financial need.  I
>> >> >assume the reason was that with the advent of open admissions and
>> >> >the imposition of tuition at CUNY (which used to be free), poor
>> >> >and underprepared students became the primary population at CUNY
>> >> >and perhaps at other colleges as well.
>> >> >
>> >> >Again, apologies to the upstate people for my painting such a
>> >> >provincially New York City picture!  I've been accused of being
>> >> >too provincial more than once before, but it's all I know--which
>> >> >means, I guess, that the label fits.
>> >> >
>> >> >Annette Gourgey
>> >>
>> >> Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte
>> >> Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin
>> >> vive la France
>> >>
>>
>> Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte
>> Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin
>> vive la France
>>

Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte
Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin
vive la France