Very thoughtful reply. Thanks for sending it. Helen Sabin Long Beach City College California Rosemarie Woodruff wrote: > As an undergraduate in secondary education, I developed a test for > students at the highest level in high school ("college prep") in which > more than half of the students earned a D. In my naivete I had written a > test which asked them to apply the knowledge rather than just repeat it. > > In my current work with college students, every now and then, I encounter > an high school honor student who is working hard but barely earning a C > or less in exams. This is where we discuss the importance of going beyond > the what level of understanding to why, how and suppose. When I ask these > students if an apple and banana are the same, they often say no. Then when > I ask, how are they similar, they come up with the category fruit. It is > not a matter of ability. It comes back to learning style/individual > perspective. These are the students who may be able to solve the problem > but cannot justify the approach. In the case of the at-risk students, we > need to factor in attitude/values which clash with the traditional > learning environment. > > Whether a student chooses to work hard/effectively is beyond our control. > We can only provide the options/encouragement/support. We all recognize > that internal motivation is critical, but much of society operates on > external motivation. No wonder so many students are > confused/helpless/unmotivated. I like to believe that there are more > students who are succeeding than not. The good news is that there's plenty > of work for us to do. Which reminds me...got to get back to work. > > Aloha, Rosie > > Rosemarie Woodruff > Counseling and Student Development Center > University of Hawaii-Manoa > 2600 Campus Road, SSC 312 > Honolulu, HI 96822 > 808-965-6114 > > The world is full of obstacle illusions. > Grant Frasier > > On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Prof Lorraine Lavorata wrote: > > > I agree to some degree but the example of Just Say No is not a good one > > because that was alot more than just a slogan, it involved going into schools > > and doing outreach and working with children in groups and projects about drug > > abuse. Now for this issue of inner city kids, they have to do something to get > > somethinhg. One cannot rest on their laurels and it is not just like Mager > > they oughta wanna so to speak, it is reality. If I sat on my derriere I would > > not be a college teacher pursuing a doctorate. If any one of us sat on our > > derrieres we would not be the successful educational professionals we are > > today. Well if innercity kids want a piece of the pie they need to work for > > it. I blame their culture and families for the way they are since all they see > > is welfare, drug abuse etc. We need to go into these communities and do > > outreach and provide education and show role models who have made it because > > they took the right classs and did the work to get there. IN my doctoral > > programme Herve Varenne is one of my professors and he is from France and I > > have heritage from France. MY little France cohort however, feels that the > > outside needs to be fixed in society and not these innercity kids. Well I feel > > that the outside sure needs fixing, but most of the fixing is within the > > innercity culture. We as academics must reverence hard work, money and success > > and instead of downgrading business and money. We need to teach innercity kids > > that work is the key to success, not gangs. Have them use their leaderships > > skills used for gangs in some community service or some work group in the > > classroom. and most of all make sure they must take more classes and let's > > stop encouraging remedical education, let's encourage hard work in high > > school. Thanks France > > > > > > ===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance Professionals > > <[log in to unmask]> ===== > > >The response from "France" is controversial for good reason. The concept > > >of free will and individual responsibility is widely overdrawn. It may be > > >possible for us to relieve ourselves of the feeling of responsibility by > > >suggesting that, in Mager's words, "they really oughta wanta," but in > > >reality it is about as effective as the "just say no' propaganda effort to > > >reduce drug use. Evidence suggests that neither is the least effective. > > > > > >On the other hand, the fact that these young people have grown up in an > > >environment that did not lead them to prepare themselves for academia, > > >should not require society to create a sort of academic special olympics, > > >where everyone can succeed no matter what their disability. Practicality > > >demands that we maintain the standards that society requires and at the > > >same time offer something of value to those who cannot--for whatever > > >reasons--meet those standards. I think we know how to do the former; I see > > >no evidence that we have a clue regarding the latter. When half of my > > >pre-pre-college students fail to pass the arithmetic course for the second > > >time, what helpful advice can I give them? > > > > > >John M. Flanigan <[log in to unmask]> The equation is the final arbiter. > > >Assistant Professor, Mathematics --Werner Heisenberg > > >Kapi'olani Community College The scoreboard is the final arbiter. > > >4303 Diamond Head Road --Bill Walton > > >Honolulu HI 96816 History is the final arbiter. > > >(808) 734-9371 --Edward Gibbon > > > > > >On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Prof Lorraine Lavorata wrote: > > > > > >> What you say is right. I will add some very controversial yet very true > > >> observations. If poor, inner-city NYC youths are not motivated enough to > > take > > >> the required courses in high school then it is their fault why they are at > > a > > >> lower level and cannot pass the regents. They need to start challenging > > their > > >> minds instead of their fellow citizens in street gangs. It is not society's > > >> fault but their own. The education is available and if these students would > > >> take advantage, we would not need to pile up the remedial classes in > > colleges > > >> where students should already have the skills. In France these students > > would > > >> not even get the baccalareat and pass the lycee let alone get into a > > >> university. There is no open enrollment in France and in America, we should > > >> start modeling after France. France > > >> > > >> > > >> ===== Original Message From Open Forum for Learning Assistance > > Professionals > > >> <[log in to unmask]> ===== > > >> >Re the Regents' difficulty level: As you said, reactions really > > >> >depend on where one is coming from. At my specialized high school, > > >> >we were always glad to take a Regents because it was easier than > > >> >our school's final exams. For students in an inner-city high > > >> >school, they would be difficult. > > >> > > > >> >The format in my time was usually a multiple-choice cumulative > > >> >final, testing subject knowledge. It was all factual and, as > > >> >one of the posts said, we got the previous exams to practice on > > >> >so we knew exactly what to expect. I used to feel that there > > >> >was a precise way you had to take the questions--not read too > > >> >much or too little into them--and if you got a "feel" for that > > >> >you could do well. > > >> > > > >> >In New York City, I suspect that most students who don't pass > > >> >the Regents have not taken the courses, as opposed to taking the > > >> >exams and failing them. E.g. an academic diploma requires 3 > > >> >years of high school math and a general diploma requires 1 or 2. > > >> >General students take only the minimum required courses. That is > > >> >why they jack up the remedial load at a place like CUNY--if they > > >> >haven't taken intermediate algebra, they simply have to take it > > >> >at CUNY for no credit. > > >> > > > >> >Because the Regents are subject tests, they have no meaningful > > >> >correspondence to the SAT (except in so far as bright students > > >> >who test well will do well on all types of tests). > > >> > > > >> >Another question was about the Regents College Test. Years ago > > >> >there was a Regents Scholarship Test. I don't recall the content > > >> >except that it was grueling (I think it took two full days). > > >> >They were used for awarding merit scholarships, the precise > > >> >amount of which was then aligned with your tuition. That was > > >> >abolished a number of years ago and was replaced by the Tuition > > >> >Assistance Program which is based solely on financial need. I > > >> >assume the reason was that with the advent of open admissions and > > >> >the imposition of tuition at CUNY (which used to be free), poor > > >> >and underprepared students became the primary population at CUNY > > >> >and perhaps at other colleges as well. > > >> > > > >> >Again, apologies to the upstate people for my painting such a > > >> >provincially New York City picture! I've been accused of being > > >> >too provincial more than once before, but it's all I know--which > > >> >means, I guess, that the label fits. > > >> > > > >> >Annette Gourgey > > >> > > >> Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte > > >> Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin > > >> vive la France > > >> > > > > Je pense, donc, je suis, Rene Descarte > > Chacun ont deux pays et un de ils est France, Benjamin Franklin > > vive la France > >